Question on obedience/submission to authority

[Omegaman 3.0]

Suppose with me for a moment, that there were legal challenges that have gone to the supreme court. Suppose with me that the court has ruled, that:

A certain behavior cannot be restricted to an individual, and that a state cannot require licensing for that behavior, because it is a fundamental right.

Suppose also, that the court explicitly has ruled, that there can be no special requirements to engage in this practice, such as mandatory insurance, or certificates of competency, etc.

Suppose the the court has also ruled that if a state enacts statutes, which require licenses, insurance, etc. in order to lawfully engage in said activities and behavior, that the citizen may ignore the state's requirements, as unlawful.

Finally, suppose that a citizen, is a Christian, and the citizen desires to engage in an activity, which his state denies to him, but the courts have held that it is that citizen's right to engage in, and is guaranteed to said citizen as a fundamental right.

Titus 3:1 says:
 
Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 

Romans 13 says:

1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 

Now, sorry for the bakground, but here is the question:

How does one apply the scriptures in the above scenario? One the one hand, a legal authority says do not do "X". A higher legal authority says that it is okay to disregard the lower legal authority. Does the Christian go with the higher legal authority, or does he/she wave their legal right, in order to be submissive to a lower, yet still legitimate, legal authority?

What do you think? BTW, such a situation exists, but I did not include those details, because I did not want people's emotional attachments to one side or the other, influence what they thought the proper application should be.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Suppose with me for a moment, that there were legal challenges that have gone to the supreme court. Suppose with me that the court has ruled, that:

A certain behavior cannot be restricted to an individual, and that a state cannot require licensing for that behavior, because it is a fundamental right.

Suppose also, that the court explicitly has ruled, that there can be no special requirements to engage in this practice, such as mandatory insurance, or certificates of competency, etc.

Suppose the the court has also ruled that if a state enacts statutes, which require licenses, insurance, etc. in order to lawfully engage in said activities and behavior, that the citizen may ignore the state's requirements, as unlawful.

Finally, suppose that a citizen, is a Christian, and the citizen desires to engage in an activity, which his state denies to him, but the courts have held that it is that citizen's right to engage in, and is guaranteed to said citizen as a fundamental right.

Titus 3:1 says:
 
Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 

Romans 13 says:

1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 

Now, sorry for the bakground, but here is the question:

How does one apply the scriptures in the above scenario? One the one hand, a legal authority says do not do "X". A higher legal authority says that it is okay to disregard the lower legal authority. Does the Christian go with the higher legal authority, or does he/she wave their legal right, in order to be submissive to a lower, yet still legitimate, legal authority?

What do you think? BTW, such a situation exists, but I did not include those details, because I did not want people's emotional attachments to one side or the other, influence what they thought the proper application should be.

Isn't the lower legal authority subject to the higher legal authority? I would not think there would be a difference between an individual going with a legal authority, than a legal authority going with a higher legal authority. But it seems in the scenario you provided the choice is up to the individual in any case.

[Omegaman 3.0]

46 minutes ago, Joline said:

Isn't the lower legal authority subject to the higher legal authority? I would not think there would be a difference between an individual going with a legal authority, than a legal authority going with a higher legal authority. But it seems in the scenario you provided the choice is up to the individual in any case.

 

Well, lower legal authorities and higher, can be interesting questions. For example, in the United States, the Constitution is supposed to be the law of the land, they highest legal authority. However, the constitution enumerates rights to the citizens and limits the authority of the federal government. I am not a lawyer, a legal scholar, or any such thing. However, as I understand it, the 10th Amendment says:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

Personally, I take that to mean that if the authority is not provided to the federal government, to do something, then the federal government does not have the authority to do it. This means that "lower" governments have authority (for example state legislatures) to enact laws that the Federal Govt cannot.

Consider the 1st Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now, here is a case where the constitution clearly states that congress cannot enact laws, which prohibit the free exercise of religion. It would seem then, that this means that the feds cannot make a law, prohibiting the teaching of the Bible, or prayer, or teaching creation, etc., because that interferes with free exercise of religion.

Going back to the 1st Ammendment, we would notice, that powers not granted to the United States, are reserved to the States an the poeple. Wouldn't that mean then, that is a state law was passed, that required a statement of faith, before a person could hold a state public office, or if a state chose to have an official religion, that it could, since congress can not forbid it, and what the feds cannot do, the state may?

That would be my take on it. So, a higher legal authority, does not mean that it has the over-riding authority in every case.

While all of this could be an interesting topic itself, what I was after, is not the question of what the Christian citizen has as choices that was already stated, what I asked was, how does one apply the scripture to the example. I do not think the Bible, is like "The Code" in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, "more like guidelines", I think that the Bible, gives us real instructions, not that we have to obey them for salvation, but we obey them out of love, gratitude, and a recognition, that we were bought with a price, and we owe obedience, and strive for that. 

So, does "obey the authorities" have a meaning? I would suggest, that possibly, that citizen believer, solved the problem most certainly, by not engaging in that practice that he/she might be legally entitled to do, because in that way, there is not risk of disobeying.

I really did not want to poison the well with my thought or opinion, I am hoping to see the opinions of others, especially if they can express reasons for their opinions.

Thanks for your contribution.

[Ezra]

13 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Does the Christian go with the higher legal authority, or does he/she wave their legal right, in order to be submissive to a lower, yet still legitimate, legal authority?

The highest legal authority should be obeyed.  And over that authority is God Himself.  In the case of the apostle Paul who was a Roman citizen, he appealed to Caesar himself, therefore he was sent to Rome.  From what we know of Paul, he was led of God in this matter, and as a result he was able to preach and teach in Rome for two years.

[kwikphilly]

Quote

The highest legal authority should be obeyed.  And over that authority is God Himself.  In the case of the apostle Paul who was a Roman citizen, he appealed to Caesar himself, therefore he was sent to Rome.  From what we know of Paul, he was led of God in this matter, and as a result he was able to preach and teach in Rome for two years.

I was thinking the exact same thing as Ezra but I really believe in such matters as these(personally)I would not know what the "right" thing to do was/is & without Gods direction I would not try to decide on my own,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is my honest answer,,,,it cn be confounding because we are not really "citizens" of any part of this world & yet we must live in it & give Ceasar what is his!!!! We are to obey our authorities,but which? This is difficult,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I'm thinking on something I read about a man who refused to pay his taxes & took it to Supreme Court(& won),,,,,I hope I can recall the facts properly? According to our Constitution we pay taxes on our "profit & gains",,not our wages,that is not a "profit or "gains"" when you worked & earned "wages",,,

I believe it was the 1916 Stanton Case,,,the 16th Amendment gave gov't no tax empowerment(not taxable)    & the IRS could not show a"law" because there is no LAW    The fellow said"Show me a Statute" & the IRS could not......it all started when the man would not file a 1040,you can go to jail because the IRS DEMANDS you to file,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,The man plead the 5th & said he would not incriminate himself!!!!!  

I'm not sure if I am telling it properly but the man won,,,,,,it has happened a lot because the lower courts cannot overrule Supreme Court  & the Us Constitution strictly forbids direct unapportioned tax on wages & salaries of American Citizens,,,,,,how do you like that?

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The highest legal authority should be obeyed.  And over that authority is God Himself.  In the case of the apostle Paul who was a Roman citizen, he appealed to Caesar himself, therefore he was sent to Rome.  From what we know of Paul, he was led of God in this matter, and as a result he was able to preach and teach in Rome for two years.

Thank you Ezra. Excellent point. An appeal to the highest authority over which God presides. how simple. That is what Paul did. He took his argument to the highest authority to decide the matter.

[angels4u]

41 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The highest legal authority should be obeyed.  And over that authority is God Himself.  In the case of the apostle Paul who was a Roman citizen, he appealed to Caesar himself, therefore he was sent to Rome.  From what we know of Paul, he was led of God in this matter, and as a result he was able to preach and teach in Rome for two years.

 

Amen!

[woundeddog]

Maybe I missed this, but if it is a lawful judgement we should of course obey it-- but if it directly conflicts with Gods word we should not obey it-- when Paul was told to stop preaching Jesus crucified he replied should we obey man or God? But, We need to be careful when we are looking at a law and not just assume it conflicts with the Bible- when It may just conflict with our personal beliefs

[missmuffet]

Question: "According to the Bible, to whom are we to be submissive, and why?"

Answer: Submission is a concept that seems to go against the grain of human nature, and yet we all see the need for it in certain aspects of life. Without submission, things quickly fall into chaos as everyone strives to be in charge. Even though it is sometimes mocked as a sign of weakness, submission is really one of the strongest pillars of a stable society. What does the Bible say about the parameters of submission?

First of all, we need a proper understanding of submission. The English word submit comes from a Latin root which means “to let down, reduce, or yield.” It pictures kneeling before a superior. Even our modern language hints at its roots: to have a “sub-mission” would mean to have a “secondary” mission that yields to a greater one. The New Testament Greek word is hupotasso, which means “to put under or arrange under.” It is a military word that refers to lower-ranking soldiers arranging themselves under the orders of higher officers.Submission, then, comes from an acknowledgment of proper order and authority.

All authority comes from God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and we are commanded to submit to Him (James 4:7). The apostle Paul outlines a chain of authority in 1 Corinthians 11:3–12, reminding that woman was made from man and man was made by God. The full order of authority is God — Christ — Man — Woman. Again in Romans 11:36, we are told that all things are from God, through God, and to God, so He is the highest authority.

Jesus Himself recognized God’s authority and was submissive to it. In John 4:34, Jesus said His purpose was “to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work,” and in John 5:30, “I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.” Jesus’ entire life was one of submission to the Father, culminating with His great prayer of submission just before His death, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39). If we will be disciples of Christ, we must submit to Christ’s authority, just as He submitted to the Father’s (Luke 6:46; 14:27).

This brings us to the more common question: to whom are we to submit, when, and why? The “why” is easy to answer—because God commands it, and He is the highest authority. First Peter 2:13–14 gives the general concept: “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.” Since all authority comes from God, we are to submit to anyone who is placed in authority over us. In so doing, we submit to God. Likewise, to rebel against those in authority is tantamount to rebelling against God. That is one reason why Christians through the ages have allowed themselves to be martyred rather than take up arms against the State.

Wives are to submit to their own husbands as an act of reverence and worship to God (1 Peter 3:1–6). The example Peter gives of Sarah and Abraham points to a time when Abraham told her to lie in order to protect himself (Genesis 20:13). Even though it looked like she was putting herself in harm’s way, she submitted, and God worked to protect her. Peter says this kind of submission will be used by God to win over a disobedient and faithless husband.

Young men are to submit to their elders (1 Peter 5:5), showing reverence for their age and wisdom. This is a carry-over from the command given to children in Deuteronomy 5:16—honor your father and your mother. Parents are entrusted with the responsibility to raise and train their children, and children are to honor and obey their parents. Obeying and honoring our elders, and recognizing they know more than we, sets the structure for a good society.

Christians are told to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (Ephesians 5:21). This prevents selfish pride and fits well with the command to consider others better than ourselves (Philippians 2:3). If our purpose on this earth is to do the will of God, then submitting to someone else becomes an act of trust in God. We naturally look out for our best interests, but, if we trust God to take care of us, then we are free to take care of others.

Our service to our employers also fits into the submission framework. Ephesians 6:5–8 says we should obey our masters just as we would obey Christ, and to do it wholeheartedly, as if we were serving the Lord. The reason in verse 8 is that “you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.” Everything comes back to recognizing God’s authority and control over our lives.

Even when a higher authority violates God’s order, we can submit in a godly fashion. When the apostles were arrested for preaching about Jesus, they did not resist. However, when told to stop preaching Jesus, they replied, “We must obey God rather than men!” (Acts 5:29). They appealed to a higher authority and continued to preach Jesus openly, even though it led to persecution. In some cases, they saw God bring miraculous deliverance. In others, God allowed martyrdom. In all cases, they rejoiced “because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name” (Acts 5:41).

The Bible has many other things to say about submission, but these brief examples give the main idea. God is the supreme authority, and He has established earthly authorities. When we keep ourselves within that framework, God is pleased, and we are able to see Him work on our behalf.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-submissive.html

[other one]

as a christian, our authority runs from God to the Federal Constitution to the state constitution and it's laws.   It is unfortunate that our liberal elected officials have put into the supreme court a group of people who think they have the authority to change the constitution by declaring that it really means something else when it is obvious that it does not...

in that case it is our duty to remove those judges, but I can not get my elected officials to do thier jobs.

It puts us into a constitutional crisis and confuses our duties to the Lord.....