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Calvinism versus Arminianism


missmuffet

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This describes my beliefs.  It is not hard core 5 point Calvinism.   But it definitely is not Arminianism   It is closer to 4 point Calvinism

T (Total Depravity) The Calvinists rightly teach that all descendants of Adam are by nature totally corrupt in spiritual matters. People do not have freedom of the will to turn to God in faith or cooperate in their conversions (Eph. 2:1; John 3:5-6; Rom. 8:7).  [1Co 1:18 NKJV For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God].  [1Co 2:14  But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.]    is only through the grace and call of God that we are given faith to believe and repent. At the time we feel like we are choosing to turn away from sin, come to and follow Christ.  But later we can look back and see how God had been working in our lives to bring us to this point.

U (Unconditional predestination) Scripture does teach that it is by grace that God has predestinated the elect to eternal salvation and given them justifying faith.  [Act 13:48 WEB As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.] is not because of any condition fulfilled by them (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 1:4-6; Phil. 1:29). However, the Bible does not teach, as do the Calvinists, that some are predestined for damnation. God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4 God our Savior;  who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.)

L (Limited atonement) It is true that Christ died for the church and purchased it with His blood (Eph. 5:25; Acts 20:28). Furthermore, His atoning death does not mean that all people are saved (1 Cor. 1:18). However, Jesus died for all (2 Cor. 5:15 He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again) [1Ti 4:10 WEB For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.]

.I (Irresistible grace) We agree that God makes us alive by His mighty power, without our aid (Eph. 2:5; John 1:13). But Scripture warns we can resist God’s gracious call (Matt. 23:37; Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 6:1). And some people do resist God’s grace, or all would be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Furthermore, God warns us not to resist His grace (2 Cor. 6:1; Heb. 4:7).

P (Perseverance in grace) We affirm with Scripture that those who are predestined to salvation cannot be lost but will continue by God’s power to a blessed end (Rom. 8:30; 1 Peter 1:5). Scripture does teach, however, that those who come to faith can lose that faith (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-29; Ps. 51:11).  [Heb 3:12 NKJV Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13  but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,] God urges His people not to continue in sin but to live in repentance and faith (Rom. 6:1-4).  

partly from Churches in America by Dr. Thomas Manteufel; p. 41 (St. Louis: CPH, 1994).  edited by myself

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3 hours ago, Giller said:

for then you have to rip a page from your bible , so you can conform the word of God , to your doctrine , rather than just believing it all , and letting scripture lead us in the direction it leads us.

Well said.  We need to be Biblicists and set aside all man-made doctrines.

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15 hours ago, Giller said:

Well I believe in placing your faith in God , and continuing to place your faith in God.

I do not believe in forming a doctrine around somebody else's belief , John Calvin is not the author of the bible.

This is what the bible says:

Eph 1:5-6
(5)  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(6)  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


Eph 1:11
(11)  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


1Pe 1:2
(2)  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Now these verses are the word of God , but people tend to not compare scriptures with scriptures , along with these scriptures .

The bible says to:

1Co 2:13
(13)  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

We need to compare the word with the word.

So here are other things the bible says:


2Pe 3:9
(9)  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Jos 24:15
(15)  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

Rom 1:20
(20)  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

Mat 22:14
(14)  For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

God calls all to repentance for that is his will , but only few choose his will of getting saved (he would that none would perish) , and men are without excuse.

The bible also says this:

Tit 2:1
(1)  But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

When it is sound doctrine , it harmonises together , and flows together , but when it is not harmonious , it does not flow together , some can say that their predestination doctrine denies free will , and only some are chosen for salvation , but that is not according to sound , harmonious doctrine , for then you have to rip a page from your bible , so you can conform the word of God , to your doctrine , rather than just believing it all , and letting scripture lead us in the direction it leads us.
 


 


 

This is a hermeneutic principal: immediate context, chapter context, book context, books context.... God's Word is a harmonized
accounting of all God wants you to know in order that this may be so in you

2 Ti 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

2 Ti 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV


You want to be pleasing and useful to God Who has given you everything... do the work!  Love, Steven

 

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On 5/16/2016 at 5:59 PM, missmuffet said:

Which belief do you hold? I go more towards Arminianism.

I Started out as SBC, but then quickly jumped to the AG (where I've been for MOST of the last 53 years).  But then I ran with the Charismatics during the '70s, and got "Forcibly Un-Denominationalized".   Consequently I classify myself as a: "Calvinist leaning Free-Range Charismatic, holding ECLECTIC theology who's a Member in good standing of an AG church that doesn't define my beliefs".

One can be a radiant, and productive Christian without ever having heard of either "systematic".

 

 

Edited by Bob Carabbio
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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 6:53 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I guess I would go with Calvinism, if I have to place myself in one of those camps. However, I do not like the term for a few reasons. When people think of Calvinism, they usually think of the 5 points sometimes referred to by the acronym T.U.L.I.P.

Calvin did not come up with TULIP, and the Tulip is a response to the 5 objections that followers of Jacob Armius had, to teachings of John Calvin. The so called 5 points of Calvinism, were answers to the 5 objections of the Aminians. Calvin was a whole lot more that the 5 points. As a result of this debate between the followers of Calvin, and the followers of Arminias, the five objections of the Arminian camp, came to be declared  to be heresy, at the Synod of Dort.

I do not accept everything that Calvin has to say, and I think he had some character flaws, so I do not like to call myself a Calvinist. Instead, I do agree with the 5 points never-the-less, that Calvin understaood as Luther's and Paul's theology, and I agree with Calvin and Paul, on those 5 particular issues. To me, these 5 things are a small part of Ne Testament theology and a key features, or tradition protestant or reformation theology. 

There are some people, sometimes called Hyper-Calvinists, and I dissociate myself from their misguided views.

Probably my largest objection to the Arminian few,is I believe it deprives God of Glory, by instead of salvation being soley by grace, it puts man in control of his own salvation, claiming that man is the one who decides to believe, and that results in salvation, instead of God choosing in eternity who He will save by giving them the faith to believe.

I repented of Arminianism, about in 2013 I believe, and am so glad to have a fuller understanding of God's grace and how it is only because of Him, that any are saved.

Addendum:

I thought that I would add, that there are some who call themselves a 4 point Calvinist, or things like that, meaning that they agree with part of the Tulip, not all of it. However, that is a poor description, as if it is less than those five, it is something other than 'Calvinism"

Think of it like this: Suppose there was something similar for Christianity.

Jesus Virgin Conception
Jesus Sinless Life
Jesus Substitutionary Death on the Cross, to Pay the Penalty of Sin for Believers
Jesus Bodily Resurrection from the Dead
Jesus Future Return and Judgment 

Now suppose a person were to say, "I am a 4 point Christian, I do not believe He rose from the dead!"

I am sorry, but if you do not believe in  His Resurrection, then you are not really a Christian

Dr. Norman L. Geisler calls himself a 3.5 point Calvinist.  Not sure where the 0.5 point comes from.  I previously called myself a 5 point Calvinist mainly because of the books I read by Dr. R. C. Sproul on Reformed Theology.  Brilliant as Dr. Sproul is, he does not understand the New Testament usage of the word predestine.  While I see God as sovereign, I also see God both inside and outside of the dimension of time.  While Sproul discounts mankind's free will to preserve God's sovereignty, I have no need to do that and fully embrace both, mankind's free will and God's sovereignty.  I thank the Holy Spirit for leading me to my understanding based on the book of Job.

So as far as Calvinism is concerned I am no longer fully there.  Calvin and Luther are not infallible in their writings and reasoning's.  Arminianism is mostly heresy, imho.

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On 5/20/2016 at 10:06 PM, angels4u said:

Actually I do believe the 5 points but believe also in free will..

How about you?

 

Well how about  that!

I have declared often that I am the world's only freewill Calvinist.

Now I learn I am not. I don't know if my faith is shaken or confirmed.

 

As to freewill; from the human view, which I have of necessity and of limitation, I do have free will. Yet my freewill does not allow me to resist an irresistible God. Least not this side of my sanity it does not. 

I was called, the specific call to me, by the Holy Spirit in such terms that I would not be able to resist. I find this call described in my Bible, just as I do the other so called five points of Calvinism, which as has been memtioned is not from Calvin at all. And was successfully defended at the Synod of Dort.

Arminius and his followers really  renewing, just  raising again, the older argument going back  to  Pelagius, from around AD 400+-,and also at later councils.

 I was unaware of any camps of thought at all when I was called into my salvation by the grace, mercy and totally unmerited by me salvation. It was not necessary  for me to have any awareness whatsoever of Calvin  nor Arminius. It wasn't even necessary for me to know five point s of much  of anything. All I did was say in response to a description of  the purpose of Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was -"If that's true I want it."

Over many years I have learned to read with some comprehension the passages and Books of the Bible along with learning to pray and to think. And that has lead me to  see that my Bible affirms what is called Calvinism TULIP.

 

To me Hyper-Calvinism is nothing Biblical. It is not even Calvinistic. For the Bible tells me that we are to go into all the world sharing the gospel of Jesus with all that will hear. And that we are to do so for a purpose- That many may be presented as mature in Christ Jesus. I do not see where any saint saves anyone, that is not the obedience Jesus has set for us. It is the Holy Spirit that  makes specific call  and convicts the unaware. I do not call anyone unsaved, as I understand that  all that were given to Jesus were foreknown and those foreknown  are predestined. It doesn't matter when they each become aware for they were known to God from before time itself. I that very specific and important sense they have always been saved. And Jesus the Good Shepherd having been given the sheep of His flock does not lose a one. If He does not lose a one I don't see how any foreknown and predestined saint can possibly lose their salvation.

My responsibility to my Lord Jesus  is to share of His gospel.It is not my privilege nor my ability to save anyone, not even myself. And that is so I will not have to deal with pride in self, all Glory is God's alone. Praise God.

 

If that happens to co-incide with Calvinism, count me as  a Calvinist, otherwise  I am not a Calvinist.

Edited by Neighbor
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On 7/6/2016 at 0:25 PM, Willa said:

U (Unconditional predestination) 

Except that it is U in T.U.L.I.P. is Unconditional Election. Unconditional election is just one aspect within the idea of predestination. It merely holds that when God chose those who He would save, He did so for His own reasons, not based on anything that the chosen would do. This is very close to the idea of being saved by grace, not by works . hence it is unconditional.

 

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Calvanism which is monergistic in formation and application~ yet God says this

Isaiah 46:10 (KJV)

[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ezekiel 33:11 (KJV)

[11] Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

For election unto salvation to be monergistic these statement by God cannot be logically rectified... Love, Steven

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1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Except that it is U in T.U.L.I.P. is Unconditional Election. Unconditional election is just one aspect within the idea of predestination. It merely holds that when God chose those who He would save, He did so for His own reasons, not based on anything that the chosen would do. This is very close to the idea of being saved by grace, not by works . hence it is unconditional.

 

You are right. But the objection is that some were also chosen to damnation.  The double part is what I and the Lutheran church objected to.  God offers salvation to all.  Many are called but few are chosen.  God has chosen all believers to be saved and predestined them to be conformed to the image of Christ, to obedience to Christ and to be set apart to Himself.  

to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1Pe 1:2 AMP  Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: 

and

Eph 1:1  PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the divine will (the purpose and the choice of God) to the saints (the consecrated, set-apart ones) at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:2  May grace (God's unmerited favor) and spiritual peace [which means peace with God and harmony, unity, and undisturbedness] be yours from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.  Eph 1:3  May blessing (praise, laudation, and eulogy) be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual (given by the Holy Spirit) blessing in the heavenly realm!

Eph 1:4  Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.

Eph 1:5  For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]— Eph 1:6  [So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:7  In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood, the remission (forgiveness) of our offenses (shortcomings and trespasses), in accordance with the riches and the generosity of His gracious favor, Eph 1:8  Which He lavished upon us in every kind of wisdom and understanding (practical insight and prudence), Eph 1:9  Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in Him,  Eph 1:10  [He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.

Eph 1:11  In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will, Eph 1:12  So that we who first hoped in Christ [who first put our confidence in Him have been destined and appointed to] live for the praise of His glory!

Eph 1:13  In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:14  That [Spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it—to the praise of His glory.

These passages are addressed to the saints in Christ.  All who are in Christ have been chosen and picked out to be His own and foreordained to adoption.  Whether we are picked out to be in Christ remains to be seen.  But we do know the spiritual blessings of all who are found in Christ and in whom Christ is found to be in us.  We are never told that some are picked out to go to hell.  Rather we are told that all are going to hell but for those who receive Christ and are born again.  

Joh 1:12  But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name—[Isa 56:5]  Joh 1:13  Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]

so must [so it is necessary that] the Son of Man be lifted up [on the cross], [Num 21:9] Joh 3:15  In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!

Joh 3:16  For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. Joh 3:17  For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

Joh 3:18  He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ's name.]

So all are already condemned to hell.  We are rescued from the sea of humanity flowing into hell by virtue of the grace of God, the gift of faith and the gift of salvation.  I simply believe that we could have resisted His rescuing grace and chosen not to believe.  So I believe that salvation is offered to all and many are called but few are chosen.  I do not believe in irresistible grace and have quoted many scriptures about how men have resisted the Holy Spirit, the One who produces such grace and saving faith, convicts us of sin, and reveals the Son to us in scripture.  To resist or quench the Holy Spirit when He calls us is to resist His saving grace and it hardens one's heart, in my opinion.

I do otherwise agree on unconditional election.  I agree it is nothing I can earn and is based on no virtue in me, and that I am totally lost without Him. I agree with total depravity.  I just don't believe that God chose some to go to hell, but it is by their own stubborn pride that they resist God's grace.  God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

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after careful study I have decide that I am a student of WOUNDEDDOGISM which basically states all people are stinking sinners-- if you know you are a stinking sinner you are half way there-- If at sometime you accidentally open a Bible and see the verse where Jesus says" I come to save sinners", and you think-- I'm A stinkin sinner-- that means Jesus came to save me~~ and you figure maybe I aught to ask him to be sure-- and you say- Lord! I'm a stinking sinner save me to~!! some how beyond what I will ever be able to figure out this side of glory- the moment you believed Jesus came to save stinking sinners- the Holy Spirit swoops down and takes up residence in your heart--then you go back and find that Bible you accidently looked at and start reading it some more and all of the sudden it makes sense-- the more you read the more you realize that Jesus saving you was a complete and finished work- that nobody-- not even you can undo- all your sin was forgiven past present and future-- no one- not even you can pull yourself out of the Fathers hand.

 

and the absolute best thing about WOUNDEDDOGISM is that it is okay if you don't understand everything in the Bible-- by and by the Lord himself will explain it to you!!!!

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