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What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

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23 minutes ago, Willa said:

Fundamental Christianity has never taught such a thing!  Nor has Orthodox Christianity.  This is closer to the teaching of mormon cults.  But most of them say the Holy Spirit is "something else" and that only the Father and the Christ had human bodies before they became gods.  And they teach that they are only one in purpose.  You are in grave error if you think that Father God has ever had a body.  Perhaps you studied with mormon missionaries who have confused you.

I disagree, and I'm not a JW or Mormon......   just a self studying guy........   and there have been several pieces of scripture posted on this thread that covers that.

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1 hour ago, Willa said:

Fundamental Christianity has never taught such a thing!  Nor has Orthodox Christianity.  This is closer to the teaching of mormon cults.  But most of them say the Holy Spirit is "something else" and that only the Father and the Christ had human bodies before they became gods.  And they teach that they are only one in purpose.  You are in grave error if you think that Father God has ever had a body.  Perhaps you studied with mormon missionaries who have confused you.

The catholic church does and probably still does. I, as a child was taught by the sisters, God is three beings in one body. The father Son and Holy Ghost are one. Not in unity, THEY ARE ONE IN BODY, just like a chook's egg. Shell, egg white and yolk? One egg, three parts, I, even as a child thought that was absolute rubbish.

They jammed that rubbish and a million hail Maries three times a dy, down out throats until it hurt!

I have nothing to do with Mormons, never ever have and never ever will.

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"You are in grave error if you think that Father God has ever had a body"

.

Sorry, It seems to me that it is you who are clearly in grave error, ignoring hundreds of Scriptures clearly and plainly describing God as He is. Do you want me to post the all again just for you?  Ok, I will.

Keeping this in mind, a God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible people, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold us all responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge us in the end if we constantly make Him false in all that He says, if we listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for believers to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean?

It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

 God's Word, teaches us that God has a body with bodily parts, hands, feet, eyes, head, mouth, hair, that He speaks, listenes, has a heart, eats food etc. I have listed many Scriptures which shows this and many more can be found. Many catholics I have spoken with regarding these Scriptures do not believe them because it is contrary to their belief that God can be reduced to a sliver of bread and held in a monstrance or tabernacle.

God has a spirit body with bodily parts like a man. This is proved by hundreds of Scriptures that do not need interpretation. God is a Spirit being, infinate, eternal, immutable, self-existent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, invisible, impartial, immortal, absolutely holy, full of wisdom, full of knowledge, and just in all things. God is known in Scripture by over two hundred names. He is describes as being like any other person as to having a body, soul, and spirit (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-7). He is a spirit being with a body (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6, 9-19, Exodus 24:11; Gen. 18' 32:24-32; Ezek. 1:26-28; Acts 7:54-59; Rev. 4:2-4; 5:1, 5-7; 22:4-5); shape (John 5:37); form (Phil. 2:5-7, same Greek word as in Mark 16:12, which refers to bodily form); and an image and likeness of a man (Gen. 1:26; 9:6; Ezek. 1:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:7; jas. 3:9; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6).

He has a heart (Gen. 6:6; 8:21); hands and fingers (Exod. 31:18; Psalms 8:3-6; Rev. 5:1, 6-7); Nostrils (Ps. 18:8); mouth (Num. 12:8); lips and tongue (Isa. 30:27; feet (Ezek. 1:27; Exodus 24:10); eyes, eyelids, sight (Ps. 11:4; 18:24; 33:18); voice (Ps. 29; Rev. 10:3-4; Gen. 1); breath (Gen. 2:70; ears (Ps. 18:6); head, hair, face, arms (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; Rev. 5:1; loins (Ezek. 1:26:28; 8:1-4); bodily presence (Gen. 3:8; 18:1-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Exodus 24:10-11); and many other bodily parts as required by Him to be a person with a body.

God goes from place to place just like any one else (Gen. 3:8; 11:5; 18:1-22, 33; 19:24; 32:24-32; 35:13; Zech. 14:5; Titus 2:13). God is omnipresent but not omni body, that is His presence can be felt everywhere but His body is not everywhere. God wears cloths (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; God eats food (Gen. 18:1-22; Exodus 24:11).

There is not one Scripture in the Bible which states that God is intangible, immaterial, without a body, or bodily parts, and passions except John 4:24, "God is a spirit," and this certainly does not teach that He is without a body.

Paul speaks of the human flesh and bone bodies in the resurrection as being "Spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:42-44), like unto Christs glorious body (Luke 24:39; Phil. 3:20-21); so if human bodies that become spiritualized are still material and tangible, then certainly God and other spirits have bodies just as real and still be spirit beings. John 4:24 is a statement of fact that God is a Spirit, but it does not define or analyze a spirit.

Turn to Genesis, chapter one. God had been busy for a number of days during that re-creation week, making various CREATURES of the land, sea, and air. Nothing is said about them having the form of God Himself. After all those creatures were created notice what God says in verses 26,27, "....Let us MAKE MAN in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS.. ..So God created MAN in His OWN IMAGE, in the IMAGE OF GOD created he him; male and female...."

 

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4 hours ago, TrevorL said:

There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

It appears that you are avoiding the fact that God the Father calls the Son of God "God".  Those who assert that Jesus is merely the Son of God dodge the issue that He is actually God. That would be an impossibility unless the Word Himself was very God from eternity:

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

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3 hours ago, Ezra said:

It appears that you are avoiding the fact that God the Father calls the Son of God "God".  Those who assert that Jesus is merely the Son of God dodge the issue that He is actually God. That would be an impossibility unless the Word Himself was very God from eternity:

 

Greetings again Ezra,

 

The Hebrew word “Elohim” is usually translated God in the OT, but it is also used and applied to angels, judges and here the greatest manifestation of God the Father, and this is in his Son the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that the title “the Son of God” is greater than the title “God” when applied to Jesus, because the title “God” is also applied to angels and judges, while the Son of God has been exalted above all except for God the Father.

 

Coming back to John 1, have you noticed the similar language in John’s Epistle?

1 John 1:1-4 (KJV): That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

 

Also the flow of thought in the following also matches John 1 and 1 John 1:

Hebrews 1:1 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

Matthew 1, Luke 1 and John 1 are not speaking of the contraction of God the Son into the womb of Mary, but the conception and birth of a son through the normal birth processes where God the Father is the father and Mary is the mother. Luke also records the development of Jesus in wisdom and understanding and this also shows that Jesus is not God the Son. Is God limited in knowledge? Jesus' knowledge was limited and his wisdom needed to grow.

Luke 2:40 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

 

John speaks of the moral character or glory of Jesus when Jesus entered his public ministry:

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus showed forth the fullness of the Divine moral glory and character, he was full of grace and truth. But this is not attributed to the shrinking of the 2nd Person of the Trinity into the womb of Mary, but because Jesus the Son of God was begotten or conceived by God the Father as detailed also in Matthew 1 and Luke 1.

 

There is one God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

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40 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

The Hebrew word “Elohim” is usually translated God in the OT, but it is also used and applied to angels, judges and here the greatest manifestation of God the Father, and this is in his Son the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that the title “the Son of God” is greater than the title “God” when applied to Jesus, because the title “God” is also applied to angels and judges, while the Son of God has been exalted above all except for God the Father.

Taking things out of context does not help any serious student of Scripture. While elohim (gods = mighty ones) can be applied to those (angels, judges, false gods, demons, etc.) who are not the one true and living God, we are discussing the Trinity, therefore all the rest is irrelevant.

THE FATHER IS GOD (the true God)

THE SON IS GOD (the true God)

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD (the true God)

The one we are discussing is the one of whom it is said "In the beginning Elohim (God) created the heaven and the earth" and "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Theos (God), and the Word was Theos (God).

Just because a word can be applied is different ways does not give us the license to misapply it.

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35 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The one we are discussing is the one of whom it is said "In the beginning Elohim (God) created the heaven and the earth" and "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Theos (God), and the Word was Theos (God).

Just because a word can be applied is different ways does not give us the license to misapply it.

 

Greetings again Ezra,

 

I have given my explanation of John 1. Genesis 1:1 is speaking of God the Father as the Creator. The plurality for example in Genesis 1:26 is speaking of God the Father and the angels as Psalm 8 testifies.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

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In my mind the Trinity  has always been and always will be a sacred Mystery of God that our minds cannot totally grasp.   And, in that, it is beautifully faith based.   What seems impossible to us is not impossible to God.  Three persons in one each distinct from the other.  All are equally God (not gods)..yes,  a mystery grasped only by faith. 

 

Also good to remember that  all Christian denominations and also many non-denoms have in common  their  basic belief in the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the Nicene Creed written in 325 a.d. 

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On May 31, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Ezra said:

No we cannot. Human beings have souls, and when Christ took human form, He had a sinless soul (as well as a spirit). He referred to both.  At the same time, He was in the Father, and the Father was in Him.

But the Father is pure Spirit and the Holy Spirit is also pure Spirit, yet distinct from the Father. It is not for us to either speculate or to extrapolate to *comprehend* the incomprehensible.

On the other hand, man is a tripartite being -- spirit, soul, and body. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit have dead spirits. But the spirit is given primacy over the soul and the body, because only the spirit communicates with God and understands the things of God.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole (1) spirit and (2) soul and (3) body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23)

Thanks, Ezra.  Ii totally agree with you.  

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1Jn 1:5  This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

1Ti 6:15  which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

1Ti 6:16  who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, Whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Jer 23:23  "Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD, "And not a God afar off?  

Jer 23:24  Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.

Father God is so far beyond our comprehension.  The thought of Him causes me to worship.  Yet the Holy Spirit in me calls Him Daddy!  How marvelous.  

 

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8 hours ago, seabrook said:

In my mind the Trinity  has always been and always will be a sacred Mystery of God that our minds cannot totally grasp.   And, in that, it is beautifully faith based.   What seems impossible to us is not impossible to God.  Three persons in one each distinct from the other.  All are equally God (not gods)..yes,  a mystery grasped only by faith. 

 

Also good to remember that  all Christian denominations and also many non-denoms have in common  their  basic belief in the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the Nicene Creed written in 325 a.d. 

Its no mystery at all. God has given us a clear and precise description of who He is, who the Word who became flesh is and who the Holy Spirit is. Read this and check out the Scriptures for yourself and it will no longer be a mystery.

 

Fundamental Christianity generally teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity are one, that is, united, in one body.

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that Jesus took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

And what was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

Jesus said;

"And the Father Himself, [one person] which hath sent me [another person, hath born WITNESS OF ME. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape (JOhn 5:37). How can this Scripture be true if they are "ONE" as fundamental Christianity teaches?

Jesus instructs us to "Search the Scriptures; for in the ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they which testify of me" (John 5:39). How can we pray to a God if we do not know who He is? Jesus said, "Ask me nothing. Verily verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will give it you"(John 16:23). The Father never refuses Jesus anything, so when we ask the Father in the Name of Jesus, to the Father its like Jesus asking the Father Himself. They are two separate individual self existant beings, sitting beside each other in Heaven. This is as clear and as simple to believe as any other doctrin in the Bible. Our plain common sense tells us that one person cannot sit beside himself, and God would not expect us to believe He sits beside Himself in two types of bodies, constantly transforming Himself at will, asking Himself questions and invoking prayers in His Jesus Name, and then answering them to His Jesus self as the Father. To believe this theory of Satan, which is continued by men is plain madness.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body, soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot be supported Scripturally

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