Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Serving]

Again ..

The pre-trib saints ARE the tribulation saints who likewise BECOME the post-trib saints (being resurrected and or quickened simply = post-trib saints).

 

FACT 1

ONLY the pre-trib saints can resist the falling away

Q: WHO is left "in the Lord" after the falling away? 

A: Only the SAINTS 

RESULT : Obviously then, only TWO groups left in the world AFTER the falling away .. Saints AND non saints .. meaning the pre-trib saints are STILL ON EARTH for this event leading up to the tribulation of the saints.

 

FACT 2

ONLY the pre-trib saints can overcome the marvellous words of the false prophet which are spoken to WEAR OUT THE SAINTS .. (insert : "if it were possible, to deceive the very elect")

Q: If the false prophets marvellous words are so powerful that "IF it were possible, to deceive the very elect" .. then what chance do those have who are not "in the Lord"?

A: ZERO, for all others BELIEVE THE LIE except the saints

RESULT : Only the pre-trib saints can overcome those "marvellous words" .. meaning .. the pre-trib saints are STILL ON EARTH to hear and overcome those marvellous words leading up to the tribulation of the saints .. else WHO ELSE is left to be beheaded for refusing the coming mark? 

 

FACT 3

ONLY the pre-trib saints can overcome the strong delusion which leads to believing the LIE which lies the false prophet speaks

Note : Apply same Q & A principle as the above seeing they are connected to the same event (marvellous words) leading up to the tribulation of the saints. 

RESULT : The pre-trib saints are STILL ON THE EARTH overcoming the strong delusion of the LIE the false prophet is promoting ..  else WHO ELSE is left to be beheaded for refusing the coming mark? 

 

FACT 4

4) ONLY the pre-trib saints can achieve all those trials leading up to the mark of the beast which mark becomes LAW which LAW is the actual commencement of the tribulation of the saints 

Q: Seeing that ONLY the pre-trib saints can be left in the world after the above events leading up to the mark of the beast, whereby all others are convinced by the false prophets marvellous words, WHO else if left that can possibly become the "post-trib saints" if those saints are "raptured away" ??

A: Obviously NO BODY else is left to resist (be beheaded) if those saints are "raptured" .. OBVIOUSLY !!!!!!!

RESULT: ONLY the pre-trib saints can face the mark of the beast for there are NO MEN left to resist by that stage since they have ALL believed the LIE, meaning the pre-trib saints are STILL ON THE EARTH. 

 

5) ONLY the pre-trib saints can refuse the mark of the beast and lay down their lives 

Q: Seeing ALL MEN have believed the LIE of the false prophet, WHO then are those being BEHEADED for resisting him and his mark?

A: The pre-trib saints are the only group QUALIFIED to resist and come through the above trials.

RESULT: The pre-trib saints obviously BECOME those BEHEADED for resisting the mark of the beast meaning that the pre-trib saints are STILL ON THE EARTH.

Meaning

The pre-trib saints ARE the post-trib saints which means there are ONLY SAINTS and NON SAINTS in the world during those times .. other words, no such thing as pre-trib/trib/post-trib saints .. there are only SAINTS.

Meaning

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a pre-trib "rapture" 

Meaning

Pre-trib rapture is a LIE from the enemy designed to disarm and prevent saints PREPARING for the coming trial .. "for it is a TEST" saith the Lord. 

Q: And WHO is the Lord testing?

A: His SAINTS .. obviously.

[Montana Marv]

It is impossible for there to be a Post Trib Rapture.  Since all living at that time did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood..... (Rev 9:20-21)  And since there is an angel flying in mid air proclaiming the Eternal Gospel to all (Rev 14:6), there is no need for the Church proclaiming the Eternal Gospel.  And since there are many under the Altar in Heaven who were beheaded and had not worshiped the beast or received his mark.

But for us 2 Cor 5:8, - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body, and at home with the Lord.  So our Spiritual Bodies/Souls will at home with the Lord.  Which is not under the Altar.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[MorningGlory]

On 6/6/2016 at 7:34 AM, Diaste said:

I have to chime in here. Why do we go right to a red herring when challenged? The discussion here is scripture against a pretrib position, not whether the various views are issues of salvation. Now, you may be right that salvation does not hinge on the timing of the second coming but I think that may be incorrect. Adding to or taking away from the truth of the word of God has dire consequences. We should all be very careful in this regard.

Maybe Jesus didn't teach specifically about the church in Matt 24 but He and Paul taught there is no difference anymore between Jews and Gentiles. This would mean that every word in Scripture is for everyone. This is another red herring. Or maybe a straw man. Logically fallacious in any case as both ignore the entire scope of Jesus' teachings.

The Rapture has nothing to do with the Second Coming.  Two separate events.

[Revelation Man]

On 6/6/2016 at 8:42 PM, Diaste said:

I have always found it a bit odd that PreTrib calls on Matt 24. Perhaps supporters just don't see the gathering of the saints in Matt 24:31 in conjunction with the Day of the Lord after the trib. Perhaps the same supporters don't understand there is no other gathering of the elect at the end of the age, anywhere in scripture, except Matt 24:31 and Rev 7. Rev 7 describes a great multitude before the throne. This throng is from every nation and people group. The elder says this vast gathering came out of great tribulation. This means the group in Rev 7 entered into great tribulation, after the A of D, and came through it to don white robes. The odd thing about this for Pre Trib is that no where in Rev 7 is there a group before the throne that was gathered BEFORE great tribulation, or before tribulation, or before a crisis, or before an aggressive world government begins to exist. In the whole of Revelation no such pretrib group is seen or mentioned. This is glaring omission. According to Pre Trib there should be a very large group from every nation that was gathered before the 70th week begins, or at least before the middle of the week. Where is this group? It does not exist. 

The only group that does exist is this one:

Rev 7:14 "...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."  Please find me this other very large group that is mentioned in a pretrib gathering. There must be some mention of this group somewhere, as large as it is, because the trib saints are clearly identified. One would think the Lord would mention such a rigidly faithful group that lived so well no testing was required for them to wash their robes by overcoming disastrous calamity.

And the armies of heaven in white and riding horses are not that group. There is no link to a pretrib gathering and the armies of heaven in Rev 19. 

Where does Matthew 24:31 say the Elect are gathered from ? Lets read it carefully again.......³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This agrees with Revelation 19, which says we are in Heaven, marry the Lamb, then ride white horses back with Jesus, who then conquers the Beast/Anti-Christ, his kings and their armies, who are still on earth after our return from Heaven. We are in Heaven, the elect, according to Matthew 24:31 is gathered from one end of heaven to the other. We come back from Heaven, we are gathered from heaven. 

 

The Group that came out of the Great Tribulation, were the Saints under the alter in the Fifth Seal. The other Saints were in Heaven, the people who decided for Christ after the Rapture are like the 5 Virgins who did not fill their Lamps (bodies) with Oil (Holy Spirit) and thus were left in the dark when the Bridegroom (Jesus) came to call people to the Marriage Feast. They were not at the Marriage to the Lamb, thus they tarried to long and had to endure the Anti-Christ, who will overcome them, and kill them, if they chose not to serve him.

 

God Bless the Saints...Amen.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Revelation Man

[Serving]

9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Where does Matthew 24:31 say the Elect are gathered from ? Lets read it carefully again.......³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This agrees with Revelation 19, which says we are in Heaven, marry the Lamb, then ride white horses back with Jesus, who then conquers the Beast/Anti-Christ, his kings and their armies, who are still on earth after our return from Heaven. We are in Heaven, the elect, according to Matthew 24:31 is gathered from one end of heaven to the other. We come back from Heaven, we are gathered from heaven. 

The Group that came out of the Great Tribulation, were the Saints under the alter in the Fifth Seal. The other Saints were in Heaven, the people who decided for Christ after the Rapture are like the 5 Virgins who did not fill their Lamps (bodies) with Oil (Holy Spirit) and thus were left in the dark when the Bridegroom (Jesus) came to call people to the Marriage Feast. They were not at the Marriage to the Lamb, thus they tarried to long and had to endure the Anti-Christ, who will overcome them, and kill them, if they chose not to serve him.

Not so .. Christ first enters our atmosphere before gathering His saints :

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet sounds as He descends, likely a long sounding peal like as at Mt Sinai, the dead are resurrected first THEN those remaining are transformed into spirit THEN both TOGETHER are taken up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.   

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again, notice He comes into the clouds first (our atmosphere) and THEN He gathers His saints .. therefore "we" can not be in heaven when "we" are gathered, instead, we are still on the earth as it clearly shows above.
 

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Serving said:

Not so .. Christ first enters our atmosphere before gathering His saints :

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The trumpet sounds as He descends, likely a long sounding peal like as at Mt Sinai, the dead are resurrected first THEN those remaining are transformed into spirit THEN both TOGETHER are taken up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.   

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again, notice He comes into the clouds first (our atmosphere) and THEN He gathers His saints .. therefore "we" can not be in heaven when "we" are gathered, instead, we are still on the earth as it clearly shows above.
 

True.  Just like this but in reverse.

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Where does Matthew 24:31 say the Elect are gathered from ? Lets read it carefully again.......³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This agrees with Revelation 19, which says we are in Heaven, marry the Lamb, then ride white horses back with Jesus, who then conquers the Beast/Anti-Christ, his kings and their armies, who are still on earth after our return from Heaven. We are in Heaven, the elect, according to Matthew 24:31 is gathered from one end of heaven to the other. We come back from Heaven, we are gathered from heaven. 

I don't see the merit here. The idea we 'are gathered form heaven' is an assumption that has nothing to do with gathering the elect from the earth. The point I am making is: If scripture talks about a great multitude that came out of 'great tribulation' and washed their robes and are before the throne of God, why doesn't scripture also record a similar great multitude that was taken to heaven before 'great tribulation'? A group that was obviously as perfect in their ways and as rigidly faithful as Enoch and Elijah? One would think this would be noteworthy. Yet there a no mention of such a perfect group of people taken to heaven before the beginning of the 70th week, or before the 'tribulation period' or before 'great tribulation'.

The Group that came out of the Great Tribulation, were the Saints under the alter in the Fifth Seal. The other Saints were in Heaven, the people who decided for Christ after the Rapture are like the 5 Virgins who did not fill their Lamps (bodies) with Oil (Holy Spirit) and thus were left in the dark when the Bridegroom (Jesus) came to call people to the Marriage Feast. They were not at the Marriage to the Lamb, thus they tarried to long and had to endure the Anti-Christ, who will overcome them, and kill them, if they chose not to serve him.

The other saints were in heaven? Where do you see, in scripture, the 'other' saints? Again, there must be some mention of such a group appearing in heaven several years ahead of tribulation saints. You're alluding to an event that will change the earth,  millions of people just disappearing, not prophesied and not mentioned in scripture.

 

God Bless the Saints...Amen.

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

The Rapture has nothing to do with the Second Coming.  Two separate events.

Two separate events that occur in conjunction.  Clearly the gathering is related in time to the second coming. All of the following events occur in close proximity. And even if that's not true it's remains that the following events occur as a result of the preceding events, or in the order as presented in Matt 24.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 24 is stating the Lord returns and sometime after that the angels are sent to gather the elect. Scripture indicates that either the gathering is the first thing Jesus accomplishes upon his return or it happens along side His return.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Where does Matthew 24:31 say the Elect are gathered from ? Lets read it carefully again.......³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This agrees with Revelation 19, which says we are in Heaven, marry the Lamb, then ride white horses back with Jesus, who then conquers the Beast/Anti-Christ, his kings and their armies, who are still on earth after our return from Heaven. We are in Heaven, the elect, according to Matthew 24:31 is gathered from one end of heaven to the other. We come back from Heaven, we are gathered from heaven. 

Actually, this is an idiomatic saying.  

31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Here Heaven is rendered as sky, which is a totally legitimate translation.  
The gathering is from the four winds, all directions.
The gathering is from everything under the sun, or sky, or heavens (that which is above).

We are not gathered from the third Heaven of the Father's presence only to be deposited back there.
I used to think the language of 'heaven' meant the first Heaven, Paradise, the place of Abraham's bosom: where the Dead in Christ rest in peace.

However, that would reverse the order in which Paul said, thus having Paul in 1Th 4:16-17 "correct" the Lord.
That should be impossible, because then Jesus, who is "like unto God" ('Son of' means "like unto") got the order wrong.
But there is no conjunction of "and" in the statement.
The reference to heaven is just amplification of from the four winds.
The Elect refer to those living on the earth who have survived the shortened Great Tribulation, which only begins at the midpoint Abomination(s) Desolation, and ends with the Day of the Lord.

Jesus is not talking about resurrecting the Dead in Christ here at all.
He is only talking about those who are alive upon the earth - all of it.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

18 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

The Rapture has nothing to do with the Second Coming.  Two separate events.

Yes, they are two separate events.
However, they are connected in my Pre-Wrath eschatology.  I take it you're Pre-Trib.

From my study, a great many things happen on the Day of the Lord.
These actually fit a yin/yang pattern starting with the precursor sign of the sun/moon/star event which presages the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is full of opposites, but the Bible is replete with antithetical concepts set against each other: good and bad, righteous and wicked, faith and fear, good deeds and sin, Heaven and Hell.

• Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.
  • Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man

  • Jesus touches down on Mount Zion
    • Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion

    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked

  • Jesus resurrects the Saints / Last Trumpet
    • Dead in Christ

    • Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind)

  • Deliverance = Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds
    • Those who are alive and are left

  • Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation

  • Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal

  • First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
    • Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire