Is there really a rapture?

[Steve_S]

16 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I believe it because it is in the Bible. I do not have any special theology skills. I am sure you have read the Holy Bible and the book of Revelation just as thoroughly as I have.

I'm not saying you don't believe it, I'm asking where it is in the bible?

[missmuffet]

4 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

I'm not saying you don't believe it, I'm asking where it is in the bible?

Revelation. A good verse is Revelation 7:9.

[Running Gator]

15 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Revelation. A good verse is Revelation 7:9.

⁹ After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands

Where is the part that says these are the folks left behind after the rapture?

[Steve_S]

5 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Revelation. A good verse is Revelation 7:9.

Rev 7:9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 

Where does the bible state that these people were all saved during the tribulation?

Just generally, missmuffet and I have had a fairly moderate length conversation regarding the tribulation saints. Now, I ask, where has a single shred of scriptural evidence been presented that these saints are not "born again Christians" (this was a quote from an earlier comment). I'm not meaning this to be directed at missmuffet, she has actually done a pretty good job of articulating the actual pre-trib position on these things. The main problem, and the reason that I left the pre-trib camp many years ago, is that there simply is not any scriptural credibility to the theory that I am able to see. There are a lot of "well, it would make sense of this was that and that was there" sort of ideas, but most of those ideas are taken from scripture that doesn't seem to be very well contextualized. A good piece of evidence is this very post. This is the statement that was made prior to my asking the above question:

Quote

I am saying that these unbelievers who have entered into the seven year tribulation have come to Christ. The Holy Spirit led them to  realize that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Too late to have gone in the rapture but still they will be an advocate for Christ during the tribulation. Unfortunately most of them will die during this time. But Christ will raise them up to heaven.

Again, I'm not attacking miss here, she actually articulates the pretrib position here pretty well. The scriptural evidence is given as revelation 7:9. Revelation 7:9 just says they are there, not how they got there. This is part and parcel of why I reject pretrib theology. I have never been able to pin down an exact biblical statement to it being factual and one of the key points to me is the tribulation saints. They are bought with the blood of Christ, just like you and I, and are martyred at an incredibly high rate, but, pretrib would ask me to believe that the promises made to me are not made to them, regarding wrath. The bible never says this, not anywhere, not in one single place, it's an inference that is made because there is no other way to explain a bunch of Christians being martyred in the trib, if you believe that all Christians get raptured before the trib, than to say "well, they didn't make it to the rapture, so they must just have to deal with it." The only possibility in light of this is that the wrath mentioned in 1 Thess. 5:9-10 is the wrath of God. We know for a fact that Christians are not kept from *all* wrath, because Christians are martyred all the time right now, they feel the wrath of islamists, atheists in communist countries, etc. etc.

1Th 5:9  For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 
1Th 5:10  who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

I believe this fully. I believe that we will not suffer God's wrath on the unjust, because are made just through being washed in the blood of Jesus. We have not been appointed (or destined, depending on your version) to *His* wrath because our sins have been removed from us at a distance that is equal to the distance from the east to the west.

[Eoreris]

Yes there will be. However the rapture is reserved for a small (144,000) virgin elect not defiled with women .. These are a few bought to the Christ and all violence of the end will be cut short to save them in the flesh (if needed) If you are alive at this time you will be transformed with them and not die in the flesh.  The end called the tribulation will not last 3 and a half or seven years as most believe.. It all happens fast and in a few months if that.  The ministers of the churches has told itself a lie for so long that it has become a truth that there will be a rapture before tribulation.  This is mostly because of the increase in knowledge has made modern contentment. Families living in houses with all types of modern living and seeing your family at ease will make you believe these false pastors and not be burdened with it.  Just 100+ years ago there were different pastors..they are gone now... People lived hard and they did not teach such. It is Satan,s lying wonders.. He does (Not) want you prepared physically but to believe a lie so that if you are killed in it he can laugh.. The blood of those killed will be on the rapture preachers before tribulation.. You can know how to survive by following the 2 witnesses (soon to come) instructions

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, Eoreris said:

Yes there will be. However the rapture is reserved for a small (144,000) virgin elect not defiled with women .. These are a few bought to the Christ and all violence of the end will be cut short to save them in the flesh (if needed) If you are alive at this time you will be transformed with them and not die in the flesh.  The end called the tribulation will not last 3 and a half or seven years as most believe.. It all happens fast and in a few months if that.  The ministers of the churches has told itself a lie for so long that it has become a truth that there will be a rapture before tribulation.  This is mostly because of the increase in knowledge has made modern contentment. Families living in houses with all types of modern living and seeing your family at ease will make you believe these false pastors and not be burdened with it.  Just 100+ years ago there were different pastors..they are gone now... People lived hard and they did not teach such. It is Satan,s lying wonders.. He does (Not) want you prepared physically but to believe a lie so that if you are killed in it he can laugh.. The blood of those killed will be on the rapture preachers before tribulation.. You can know how to survive by following the 2 witnesses (soon to come) instructions

The rapture of the Church has nothing to do with the 144,000.The 144,000 is the 12 tribes of Israel taken from every tribe of the "sons of Israel". These Jews are sealed and have a special protection from God.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On July 14, 2016 at 10:04 PM, missmuffet said:

The rapture of the Church has nothing to do with the 144,000.The 144,000 is the 12 tribes of Israel taken from every tribe of the "sons of Israel". These Jews are sealed and have a special protection from God.

In the analogy of the Rapture to a Harvest, the wheat represents the Elect: those believe in Jesus.

The actual, agricultural harvest would also provide the First fruits.  These were dedicated before the harvest in a Temple ritual.

The point I would add, is that the First Fruits were of the same type as whatever was to be harvested, i.e., so in analogy, they too would be of the Elect.

Side note: John, who is Hebrew and knows his Jewish lineage, gives a list 12 Tribes unlike any other found in all of Scripture for the 144,000.

We have to allow they may not be Jewish, but first and foremost: Christian.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius

[Revelation Man]

On 7/16/2016 at 6:46 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

In the analogy of the Rapture to a Harvest, the wheat represents the Elect: those believe in Jesus.

The actual, agricultural harvest would also provide the First fruits.  These were dedicated before the harvest in a Temple ritual.

The point I would add, is that the First Fruits were of the same type as whatever was to be harvested, i.e., so in analogy, they too would be of the Elect.

Side note: John, who is Hebrew and knows his Jewish lineage, gives a list 12 Tribes unlike any other found in all of Scripture for the 144,000.

We have to allow they may not be Jewish, but first and foremost: Christian.

Ever wonder about the Wheat and Tares parable ? The tares are supposed to be bound first, then the Wheat is gathered to the Fathers Barn. But either version of the Rapture, be it Pre-Mid or Post, the Church is taken to Heaven first, for 7 years, 3 1/2 years, or to meet Jesus in the air and come back with him like Rev. 19 says, (I know its pre, but just for arguments sake....) So, how can the Tares be gathered and bound before the Wheat ? There is only one way. Jesus came to die for all man kind, of course, but his ministry was unto Israel only (for I have come unto the lost sheep of Israel only) The Church has nothing to do with Jesus' parable, the Wheat is Israel, and the tares are those destroyed when we, the Church, come back with Jesus to destroy the Tares, thus binding them in the Grave for their eventual judgment in 1000 years. Thus they are bound, and Jesus welcomes Israel (Wheat) into his Fathers barn, they are graphed back into the tree so to speak.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On July 16, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

In the analogy of the Rapture to a Harvest, the wheat represents the Elect: those believe in Jesus.

The actual, agricultural harvest would also provide the First fruits.  These were dedicated before the harvest in a Temple ritual.

The point I would add, is that the First Fruits were of the same type as whatever was to be harvested, i.e., so in analogy, they too would be of the Elect.

Side note: John, who is Hebrew and knows his Jewish lineage, gives a list 12 Tribes unlike any other found in all of Scripture for the 144,000.

We have to allow they may not be Jewish, but first and foremost: Christian.

Shalom, Marcus, and, ...

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Ever wonder about the Wheat and Tares parable ? The tares are supposed to be bound first, then the Wheat is gathered to the Fathers Barn. But either version of the Rapture, be it Pre-Mid or Post, the Church is taken to Heaven first, for 7 years, 3 1/2 years, or to meet Jesus in the air and come back with him like Rev. 19 says, (I know its pre, but just for arguments sake....) So, how can the Tares be gathered and bound before the Wheat ? There is only one way. Jesus came to die for all man kind, of course, but his ministry was unto Israel only (for I have come unto the lost sheep of Israel only) The Church has nothing to do with Jesus' parable, the Wheat is Israel, and the tares are those destroyed when we, the Church, come back with Jesus to destroy the Tares, thus binding them in the Grave for their eventual judgment in 1000 years. Thus they are bound, and Jesus welcomes Israel (Wheat) into his Fathers barn, they are graphed back into the tree so to speak.

Shalom, to you, too, Revelation Man.

Sorry, gentlemen, but the "twelve tribes of Israel" are just that, twelve tribes of the children of ISRAEL.

Revelation 7:1-10
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda (Yhuwdaah) were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben (R`uwVeen) were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad (Gaad) were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser (Aasheer) were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali (Naftaaliy) were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses (Manasheh) were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon (Shim`own) were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi (Leeviy) were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar (Yissaakhaar) were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon (Zbuluwn) were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph (Yowceef) were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin (Bin-Yaamiyn) were sealed twelve thousand.

9 AFTER THIS I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV

If you want to find Gentile (non-children-of-Israel) believers, they would be in verse 9. The tribe of Yoseef (Joseph) would be the tribe of Efrayim (Ephraim), Yoseef's younger son who was given the birthright by his grandfather, Yisra'el, instead of his eldest, Manasheh. The "servants of our God" in verse 3 is more inclusive than the "144,000 of all the tribes of Israel" in verses 4 through 8. That just happened to be the number of the children of Israel sealed. The only tribe that is not listed as in the original listing is the tribe of Dan (Daan), and they might be found in verse 9, as well. This huge multitude of all nations (including Israel), kindreds (families, clans), people, and tongues (languages) may also include others of the children of Israel that were not so sealed, as it does the Gentiles.

 

And, the parable about the Wheat and the Tares (look-alike Weeds) is not about this current time period at all! It is about God's Son's KINGDOM AGE, the MILLENNIUM! Consider Yeshua`s words CAREFULLY! This is one of the few parables in which Yeshua` describes the elements of the parable in detail: 

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

Let's use color coding:
The man who sows good seed in his field = the Son of man.
The field itself = the inhabited world-system (Greek: kosmos), i.e., those over whom He reigns.
The good seed = the children of the Kingdom.
The tares = the children of the wicked one.
The enemy that sowed the tares = the devil (Greek: diabolos = slanderer).
The harvest = the end of the age (Greek: aioonos = a time period, an age).
The reapers = the messengers ("angels") (Greek: aggeloi = messengers, transliterated as "angels").

Simply go back to the original parable in verses 24 through 30 and make the substitutions. It's easy today with our modern word processors.

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed children of the Kingdom in his inhabited world-system:
25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed children of the wicked one among the children of the Kingdom, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also.
27 So the servants of the householder of the Son of man came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow children of the Kingdom in thy inhabited world-system? from whence then hath it children of the wicked one?
28 He said unto them, The devil hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the Kingdom with them.
30 Let both grow together until the end of the age: and in the time of the end of the age I will say to the messengers ("angels"), Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the Kingdom into my barn.

Then, attach what Yeshua` said for clarification in verses 40-43:

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age).
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels (messengers), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend (commit crimes), and them which do iniquity (sin);
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire and Sulfur): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Just compare these verses with Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:3-13 and John's words in Revelation 20:7-21:4:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom (his kingdom) to God, even the Father (the kingdom of their Father); when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (the end of the age).
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Revelation 20:7-21:4
7 And when the thousand years are expired (i.e., AFTER the Millennium), Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle (in bundles to be burned): the number of whom is as the sand of the sea (the Tares).
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints (the Wheat) about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (sulfur), where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

[blessed457]

Here is all I need to know about the catching away-Rapture of the Church-body of Christ, I'M GOING!

Edited July 18, 2016 by blessed457