Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Sister]

I don't understand how the question of this thread can go on for so long and not be reconciled.

I was wondering the same thing about the world!

 

Here's one.

 John 6:39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24   Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

The last day would have to be the last day of something.

The "last day" would be the last day we see this world, as we know it, ..Babylon, governed by Satan and his faithful children.

Not the first day of the tribulation, or middle of it, but the last day.  The day Babylon gets destroyed in one hour, at the coming, the seventh trump/vial.

The last day, when Babylon is no more.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

This is the reason some of us post-tribs like to preach post-trib.  So that those pre-tribs can be encouraged when they find themselves in the very situation you are describing. 

 

I don't need to convince a pre-trib to change their doctrine, its pretty simple, if a pre-trib sees the antichrist coming to power and deceiving the whole world as described in 2 Thess 2 and Rev 13, do not be discouraged!  You have not been left behind, Jesus is about to appear in a few years time to rescue you from the day of wrath and so we will be with the Lord forever!  Be encouraged you pre-tribbers.

 

 

if a pre-trib sees the antichrist coming to power and deceiving the whole world as described in 2 Thess 2 and Rev 13, do not be discouraged!  You have not been left behind, Jesus is about to appear in a few years time to rescue you from the day of wrath and so we will be with the Lord forever!

 

 

Well if people do see the covenant "with the many"....then they can more or less Mark Their Calendars and Set their Watches for the Abomination of Desolation in 3.5 Years and Christ's Return in 7 Years.

 

Of course, that calls into question the Integrity of Scripture by Scuttling this Doctrine...

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

 

 

The bible is a symbolic book, so we can't always be literal, but I do generally prefer a literal interpretation, and prefer not to assume concepts when the bible is unclear. I note two things about the scripture you quoted: (Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 

Firstly the verse specifically says the "day and the hour", not the "month and the year". With the various references to 1260 days, 1290 days and 1335 days its actually unclear on which day the Second Coming will occur. We know the approximate month, but the various 3.5 year periods are pointing to the period of persecution, or the period of the witnesses, or the end of the desolator, or the 42 months of rule of the beast. The actual day or hour of the second coming is not as clear.

Secondly the present tense is used.  In other words no one currently knows.  This is like saying no-one knows when the opening ceremony of the Olympic games in 2028  will be. Its true, no-one knows, only God knows that date.   But at this point it is not adviseable to assume we will never know, and can never know beforehand. When the Olympic games opening ceremony is announced, we will know the date. When the antichrist comes to power amidst deceiving signs and wonders, we will know its about 3.5 years left. Then we will know the approximate timeframes.

 

 

Now the irony of the verses that you quote, is that the thief in the night is a second coming context, a blatant day of destruction:

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

 

This thief in the night being a surprise to unbelievers at the second coming on a day of destruction is a common biblical theme:  1 Thess 4:17-5:4

 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.  Therefore encourage one another with these words.Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you  for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly,as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

2 Thess 1: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing firewith his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you

 

Its a common error of pre-tribbers to associate the thief in the night with an unpredictable rapture, the bible however associates it with the more predictable second coming. Its a thief for unbelievers but it is not a surprise for prepared believers who know the signs of the times.  The day we get our relief, is the day this destruction occurs. 

 

 

 

 

 

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The bible is a symbolic book, so we can't always be literal, but I do generally prefer a literal interpretation, and prefer not to assume concepts when the bible is unclear.

 

 

The Bible is The WORD of GOD.  The Holy Spirit uses Rhetorical Devices throughout Scripture..... there are over 200 different types:  (Metaphors, Allegories, Similes, "Types", Puns, Synecdoche's, et al).  The Bible itself, in most cases, will tell you when and when not to be "Literal".

 

 

Firstly the verse specifically says the "day and the hour", not the "month and the year".

 

 

Are Ya kiddin me with this?

 

 

With the various references to 1260 days, 1290 days and 1335 days its actually unclear on which day the Second Coming will occur.

 

 

"1260 Days" is the Length of the "Great Tribulation" post the Abomination of Desolation.  What marks the End of the "Great Tribulation"?  

 

The 1290 and 1335 Days speak to a time period After the "Great Tribulation" that "most likely" deals with logistical issues before the Millennium ensues. (Scripture is not clear on the details, as you well know).

 

And you're splitting hairs anyway. (Caveat: there are Times when the "Splitting of Hairs" is required, this ain't on of them).

 

 

In other words no one currently knows.  This is like saying no-one knows when the opening ceremony of the Olympic games in 2028  will be. Its true, no-one knows, only God knows that date.   But at this point it is not adviseable to assume we will never know, and can never know beforehand.

 

 

Are Ya Kiddin me with this?

 

 

Its a thief for unbelievers but it is not a surprise for prepared believers....

 

 

Yes, I explicitly remember saying this over and over again to you specifically on numerous threads months ago....kudos to you.

 

98% of your position hinges on the word "surprise".....  Alarm bells should be going off. (the other 2% rests on satan being "The Restrainer", if memory serves me well)

 

Lets say I have an Uncle that leaves to discover the world but is unsure on when He will return.  But before he leaves, he tells me "I'LL BE BACK" and he has NEVER LIED to me.  He doesn't tell my Brother anything; in fact, my brother doesn't believe My Uncle exists.

10 years later, My Brother and I are sitting in the Living Room when we hear a pounding @ the door.  I open it up, and there's my Uncle On A Majestic White Horse with an 8 Foot Silver Sword and 10,000 Soldiers behind him in formation.

 

Am I "surprised" My Uncle has Returned?  Nope, He told me "I'LL be Back".  Am I "a little surprised" that he showed up Exactly then, well yea   .  My Brother has BIGGER problems....least of which is changing his shorts.

 

 

Its a common error of pre-tribbers to associate the thief in the night with an unpredictable rapture

 

 

No, it's the opposite.  Us "Pre-Great Tribbers" know that the Second Coming and the Rapture are 2 Entirely Different Events.  One HE comes for HIS Church...the Second; HE comes with HIS Church".

 

Speaking of which, can you please tell us....

 

How is "The Bride/The Wife/The Church/Born Again Christians" @ The Marriage Supper in Heaven then accompanying HIM on HIS Return (Second Coming) while still being on the Earth during the Great Tribulation??

 

and.....

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

 

 

For your position to have even a sniff of legitimacy, these simply must be Reconciled.  Please....?

[Last Daze]

 

I don't understand how the question of this thread can go on for so long and not be reconciled.

I was wondering the same thing about the world!

 

Here's one.

 John 6:39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24   Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

The last day would have to be the last day of something.

The "last day" would be the last day we see this world, as we know it, ..Babylon, governed by Satan and his faithful children.

Not the first day of the tribulation, or middle of it, but the last day.  The day Babylon gets destroyed in one hour, at the coming, the seventh trump/vial.

The last day, when Babylon is no more.

 

 

Nice connection Sister!

 

The last day of Babylon...starts when the last trumpet sounds and is completed when the last vial is poured out, on the last day.  Makes perfect sense.

 

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

 

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

When does this happen?  At the last day.

 

When I came to this forum I was of the 6th seal rapture opinion, pre-wrath as some call it.  After reading posts and discussing the topic, I'm joining the post-trib camp.  It just makes more sense.  Its important to remain teachable while engaging in discussions, which, isn't always easy because of all of the noisy gongs and clanging symbols you have to filter through.  But the Holy Spirit will lead you into the truth and reveal the things to come.  That's what He does.

 

Started off pre-trib, changed to pre-wrath, now post-trib.  Its what makes the most sense to me, at this point...still questioning...still learning.

[Enoch2021]

 

The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized.

 

So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about:

 

Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:

 

• a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation
• an invisible coming of Jesus for the church
• a two part second advent
• a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church

From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture.

 

Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ.

 

To those who want to reply in this thread:

Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.

 

I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.

 

Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.

 

Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.

 

To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:

 

• Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief.
• Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence.
• Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation

Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

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No Problem....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

 

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

So unless you can show this scenario in Scripture, welcome to Pre-Trib.    

 

 

Moreover,  

 

(Matthew 24:36) " But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(Mark 13:32) " But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

(2 Peter 3:10) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

 

 

If any "Christians" that have read Daniel Chapter 9 (Every "Christian" {other than newly converted} that I ever met is somewhat to Overtly aware of it) Observe or Hear of the Abomination of Desolation....They can more or less Mark their Calendars and Set Their Watches for Christ's Return....Whereby Scuttling the Above Passages along with another 8-10 that I didn't post.

 

How's That?

 

I have about 30 more Scriptural Proofs.... but I really don't need them; These Two settle the Matter quite Abruptly.

 

 

 

===================================================================================

 

"Here I go Again":

 

 

[PeteWaldo]

 

How many are in this forum saying in thread after thread, post after post, "well Jesus' must delay His Second Coming because this or that hasn't happened yet, or something else must happen beforehand"? 

 

 

Bulls Eye!!  That's why you should live like HE can come in the next moment; it's called, The Doctrine of Imminence.  And that is exactly what Scripture Teaches.  And if that's your outlook....then what does (should) your conduct reflect by default.   

 

I would say it is the least immenent doctrine, as futurists must say the Lord delay's His Second Coming at least 7 years, by virtue of the fact that they are still here. Which offers hope to the unrepentant that they will get a second bite at the apple. I believe enough prophecy has been fulfilled to hearld the Second Coming, and final judgment, today. And those who were putting off repentance will indeed be "left behind", but forever. Perhaps a thread on the history of this doctrine would be constructive.

 

Job 8:8  For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:  9  (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)

Edited November 4, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[PeteWaldo]

 

So if millions of people disappeared leaving their clothes in a pile, and driverless cars crashed into trees perhaps even killing the unregenerate occupants, and pilotless planes fell from the sky, then the whole world would then know they would have exactly 7 years to repent! So much for not knowing the day.

 

 

Ya think?  Walk up to an Atheist and ask them if they know Daniel 9:27.  This is Tantamount to asking a 5 year old the answer to a Tensor Calculus Equation.  Many "Christians" don't have a clue.

 

You seem to be suggesting that if millions of people suddenly disappeared, and pilotless planes fell from the sky, and driverless cars crashed into trees, all around the world at the verysame moment, that those that were "left behind" wouldn't take an interest in trying to figure out what happened! Come on, really?

[PeteWaldo]

Hi PeteWaldo,

 

I think I need to clear up a few misconceptions here. Now you said regarding the pre-trib. rapture -

 

 

 

 

`So if millions of people disappeared leaving their clothes in a pile, and driverless cars crashed into trees perhaps even killing the unregenerate occupants, and pilotless planes fell from the sky, then the whole world would then know they would have exactly 7 years to repent! So much for not knowing the day.`

 

 

When the Body of Christ comes to maturity in Him then we will know by the Holy Spirit when the Lord, the Head of the Body is about to appear. Thus we will be gathering together, more & more, as we see the day approaching. We will not be driving cars, flying planes, etc. that is a nonsense from the `Left behind` sensational stories.

Christians are supposed to continue keeping on doing what we do. Not quit work, and/or end our great commission (by "gathering together" rather than doing what we can to go out and reach the lost), and instead sit around the house waiting to get disappeared. Like the 19th century Millerites who were sitting around on a hill waiting for what wound up being their "Great Disappointment".

 

But the argument is the same. Don't you think if the world discovered that all evangelical John Darby styled futurists, all disappeared at the same time, it wouldn't be long before everyone on earth learned about Darby's "pre-trib" "rapture" from those unrepentant serial-sinning self-deluded self-proclaimed "Christians" that got left behind, what had happened?

 

I think a vacation to Syria, Nigeria, or the Sudan might help a lot of Christians through this doctrine.

 

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will  live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Edited November 4, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[ARGOSY]

 

Speaking of which, can you please tell us....

 

How is "The Bride/The Wife/The Church/Born Again Christians" @ The Marriage Supper in Heaven then accompanying HIM on HIS Return (Second Coming) while still being on the Earth during the Great Tribulation??

 

and.....

 

Any other position than the Pre-Trib position has "The Church"/Born Again Christians going through the Great Tribulation....

Well 98% of "The Church"/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until now or when it's time).  So for "The Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth, They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

 

 

For your position to have even a sniff of legitimacy, these simply must be Reconciled.  Please....?

 

 

 To answer your question, on the day of the Lord we are first raptured and avoid the wrath on that day, as per 1 Thessalonians 5 description of the destruction on the day of the Lord:

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Rev 16:9 shows that the destruction of the prostitute city of "Babylon" only occurs at the 7th bowl of wrath, ie Babylon is destroyed at the end of the tribulation. Then the order of events in Rev 19 is as follows:

v2 destruction of the prostitute

v7 wedding feast

v14 armies of heaven

v15-21 destruction of the armies on earth

 

So I suggest that the order of events at the end of the tribulation are the way the bible describes it,  there are the 7 bowls of wrath , then there is the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation (ref Rev 20). Babylon is also destroyed at this time, THEN there is the wedding feast, then the armies of heaven, then the destruction of the armies of earth.

Post tribbers believe the dead will arise first at the resurrection at the end of the tribulation, not before. You have got an incorrect view of the post -trib position, we believe the dead in Christ and the living are resurrected at the end of the tribulation. Of course the dead in Christ do not go through the great tribulation, just the living. I'm surprised you argue so vehemently against the post-trib position when you know so little about it.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

So if millions of people disappeared leaving their clothes in a pile, and driverless cars crashed into trees perhaps even killing the unregenerate occupants, and pilotless planes fell from the sky, then the whole world would then know they would have exactly 7 years to repent! So much for not knowing the day.

 

 

Ya think?  Walk up to an Atheist and ask them if they know Daniel 9:27.  This is Tantamount to asking a 5 year old the answer to a Tensor Calculus Equation.  Many "Christians" don't have a clue.

 

You seem to be suggesting that if millions of people suddenly disappeared, and pilotless planes fell from the sky, and driverless cars crashed into trees, all around the world at the verysame moment, that those that were "left behind" wouldn't take an interest in trying to figure out what happened! Come on, really?

 

 

 

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Strawman (Fallacy).  I never said people wouldn't take an Interest or try to figure it out what happened. 

 

You also have a Massive Assumption...."millions of people".  Jesus said...

 

 (Matthew 7:13-14) " Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:  {14}  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

 

That "Few",  is in the context of all the "Professed" Born Again Christians from Pentecost until now.

 

 

Back to the "actual" issue...

 

I was commenting on this (From your initial comment above)...."then the whole world would then know they would have exactly 7 years to repent! So much for not knowing the day".

 

Which I replied...."who said The Rapture "kicks-off" Daniel's 70th Week" ??

 

In other words, even if the Rapture is tomorrow, you still have no idea when HE'S coming back.

[PeteWaldo]

Job 8:8  For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers:  9  (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)

 

I recommend supporters familiarize themselves with the history of this doctrine in the church.

 

Most in here are likely already aware that John Nelson Darby is credited as being the "father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism", because in the 19th century he penned the eschatological scheme of a "7-year" tribulation with a "pre-trib" "rapture" which he also combined with a "millennial reign". However Edward Irving (of the Irvingites) is the guy that should perhaps more properly be credited with its invention. However Edward Irving was influenced by Manuel de Lacunza, while the original seeds may have been planted through a 16th century Roman Catholic Jesuit named Francisco Ribera in a counter-reformation effort. However the reformers didn't buy into it. Indeed neither did the "church" until beginning in the 19th century, and that interest was limited to the Irvinites and the Plymouth Brethren, and would have perhaps disappeared if it hadn't been popularized in the 20th century west through C.I. Scolfield's annotated bible.

"C. I. was so taken by the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby ideas that he decided to include them in the annotated Bible he was working on. Sound Bible scholars of the day like A. J. Gordon, Charles R. Erdman and W.G. Moorhead tried to dissuade him. Three members of Scofield's revision committee even resigned because of his unswerving support for the view, but their voices were not heard. The seven-year-tribulation doctrine remained . . . and that's how a Jesuit's imaginative creation ..... was incorporated into the now-famous notes of the Scofield Reference Bible." Ellis Skolfield

Dr. Harry Ironside of the Moody Bible Institute, was a highly regarded adherent to the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby-Scofield eschatological scheme, and even admitted in his Mysteries of God, p.50: ". . . until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [i.e., the Seven-Year Tribulation theory] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans. He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence." ~ Ellis Skolfield

 

The following is authored by Dave MacPherson who devoted 20 years of his life to full-time study of the subject of the pre-trib rapture. You can read the long list of chronological dating of this doctrine by copy and pasting a chunk of the following text into a search engine.

"Since the 1970's stunning new data has been surfacing about the pretribulation rapture's long-covered-up beginnings in the 1800's. In recent years several persons associated with Dallas Theological Seminary (which had long been pretribized) have reportedly gone to Britain to check on my research sources and then write books opposing my claims. In 1990 an Ohio pastor told me that Dr. _____ _____, the most qualified DTS prof, traveled there and came back and wrote nothing! The pastor added that he and some others had a good laugh. But change was coming. In 1993 Chuck Swindoll, who became DTS president after John Walvoord, stated: "I'm not sure we're going to make dispensationalism [the chief attraction of which is a pretrib rapture] a part of our marquee as we talk about our school." When asked if the word "dispensationalism" would disappear, he answered: "It may and perhaps it should" ("Christianity Today," Oct. 25, 1993)! But a few diehards (with the stubbornness of Iraqi insurgents and New Orleans looters) keep on milking their cash cow while continuing to cover up and twist the following historical facts about their latter-day, cult-like belief:

1825: British preacher Edward Irving revealed that he had been teaching some of dispensationalism's key aspects as early as late 1825. (John Darby-exalter R. A. Huebner has never even claimed to find any original prophetic idea in Darby before late 1826!)

1827-1830: Darby was still posttrib during these years. His 1827 paper had him waiting for only the posttrib "restitution of all things." After discussing in 1828 the "unity" of the church, he looked for only the Rev. 19 coming in 1829 and 1830.

1830: During the spring a young woman in Scotland, Margaret Macdonald, declared that she had discovered in the Bible what had never been seen by others: a rapture of "church" members described as a "pre-Antichrist" (or pretrib) event. Her words: "one taken and the other left" before "THE WICKED [Antichrist] be revealed." She was a partial rapturist seeing only part of the "church" raptured and the rest of the "church" left on earth. When she wrote that the "trial of the Church is from Antichrist," she meant the part of the church not included in her pretrib rapture. Leading partial rapturists including Pember and Govett have always applied the word "church" to the ones "left behind." Robert Norton, Irvingite historian and on-scene witness of Margaret's utterances, wrote that Margaret was the "first" to privately teach pretrib."

Etc. etc. through 26 more dates until 2005 as the last item noted.

Edited November 4, 2014 by PeteWaldo