Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[wingnut-]

 

The distinction between the two comings of Jesus is taught in the Bible. The 2nd coming

and the establishment of His Kingdom was known prior to when the Church was established.

Therefore, Jesus is speaking of His coming to establish the Kingdom whereas the Rapture

is a mystery that wasn't known until the Apostle Paul revealed the catching away of the

Body of Christ. Recall Paul's words......."I show you a mystery". There was no mystery

regarding the 2nd coming which was well documented in the O.T.

Blessings,

Judith

 

 

Hello again Judith,

 

I just wanted to point this out to you, and if you could please explain then how this piece fits with your scenario.

 

Revelation 10:⁵ Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. ⁶ And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! ⁷ But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

 

When the 7th trumpet is about to sound, the mystery of God will be accomplished.

 

God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

I believe that the majority of what Zechariah describes are symbolic references. The reason I see this as symbolic is quite simple, first, because this chapter is full of symbolism, and second, following Jesus these types of sacrifices were useless.

Hi wingnut,

 

Now I have read all your notes but will just reply to this point for now.

 

What symbols do you see in this passage in Zech. 14?

Also, where does God indicate that this passage is symbolic? 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

The living water is symbolic, the reference to light in the evening is symbolic, saying that horses and kitchen pottery will have "Holy to the Lord" inscribed on them is symbolic, the Feast of Tabernacles is symbolic.  Those are some of the examples.

 

As far as where God indicates them being symbolic, I think the Feast of Tabernacles is the clearest example.  I explained why in the previous post.

 

God bless you.

[Judith]

 

 

The distinction between the two comings of Jesus is taught in the Bible. The 2nd coming

and the establishment of His Kingdom was known prior to when the Church was established.

Therefore, Jesus is speaking of His coming to establish the Kingdom whereas the Rapture

is a mystery that wasn't known until the Apostle Paul revealed the catching away of the

Body of Christ. Recall Paul's words......."I show you a mystery". There was no mystery

regarding the 2nd coming which was well documented in the O.T.

Blessings,

Judith

 

 

Hello again Judith,

 

I just wanted to point this out to you, and if you could please explain then how this piece fits with your scenario.

 

Revelation 10:⁵ Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. ⁶ And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! ⁷ But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

 

When the 7th trumpet is about to sound, the mystery of God will be accomplished.

 

God bless you.

 

Hello Wingnut -

 

In a nutshell - the "Mystery of God" will be the culmination of God's plan and purpose for His creation - especially direct divine intervention in the affairs of earth, whereas God by His grace has given mankind approx. 6,000 yrs. to mess things up,  it's now God's time to end the mystery of lawlessness/iniquity and all the other mysteries of God pertaining to the whys and why nots that we , in our humanity and not understanding the mysteries, make inquiry.  It will end in judgment and the establishment of His Kingdom here on earth.

 

Pages and pages could be written on this very topic, but I'm not skilled nor equipped to elaborate any further - it's still in a large part a MYSTERY!!  

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2015 by Judith

[Salty]

 

 

In a nutshell - the "Mystery of God" will be the culmination of God's plan and purpose for His creation - especially direct divine intervention in the affairs of earth, whereas God by His grace has given mankind approx. 6,000 yrs. to mess things up,  it's now God's time to end the mystery of lawlessness/iniquity and all the other mysteries of God pertaining to the whys and why nots that we , in our humanity and not understanding the mysteries, make inquiry.  It will end in judgment and the establishment of His Kingdom here on earth.

 

Pages and pages could be written on this very topic, but I'm not skilled nor equipped to elaborate any further - it's still in a large part a MYSTERY!!  

 

 

 

You mean pages and pages of men's philosophical ranting outside God's Word.

 

You didn't understand what wingnut just showed you with the Revelation 10 quote, especially that last phrase...

 

Rev.10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.

 

 

In other words, that one Scripture reveals that all the events of the end of this world which God first declared through His Old Testament prophets is that "mystery of God". It means the New Testament teachings align with those Old Testament Books of the prophets, and not the giving of some brand new mystery that God never gave them to write by The Holy Spirit. Even the "mystery" that Apostle Paul was talking about he was teaching from the Old Testament Books of the prophets.

[Judith]

 

.

 

 

 

Hello Salty -

 

I'm sorry, I didn't word that explanation very well.  I'll try again.

 

As I understand that scripture verse, "all the events of the end of the world", as you stated, is the outcome involving the "mystery of God" which was declared in the prophetic scriptures of the Bible.  This aspect of the "mystery of God" was accomplished.

 

The full "accomplishment" involves the direct, fully divine intervention of God to complete His purpose according to His eternal plan - which plan, prior to the initiation of all that is to be "accomplished"  had been foretold but awaiting His perfect timing for the fullfillment.  

 

Now, having said the above, my question is this - how can it be a mystery when  it was "foretold", and when we have all the prophetic scriptures to enlighten our understanding and give us revelation as to end times?  By now, this time in history, by having rightly dividing the word of truth, we can understand these aspects of the "mystery of God".  Am I correct in this?

 

The "mystery of God" is accomplished, but still a mystery as to our complete understanding of it.  That's why "pages and pages" can be written.

 

"For now we know in part, but we shall know as we are known".

 

Blessings,

 

Judith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2015 by Judith

[Salty]

 

 

.

 

 

 

Hello Salty -

 

I'm sorry, I didn't word that explanation very well.  I'll try again.

 

As I understand that scripture verse, "all the events of the end of the world", as you stated, is the outcome involving the "mystery of God" which was declared in the prophetic scriptures of the Bible.  This aspect of the "mystery of God" was accomplished.

 

The full "accomplishment" involves the direct, fully divine intervention of God to complete His purpose according to His eternal plan - which plan, prior to the initiation of all that is to be "accomplished"  had been foretold but awaiting His perfect timing for the fullfillment.  

 

Now, having said the above, my question is this - how can it be a mystery when  it was "foretold", and when we have all the prophetic scriptures to enlighten our understanding and give us revelation as to end times?  By now, this time in history, by having rightly dividing the word of truth, we can understand these aspects of the "mystery of God".  Am I correct in this?

 

The "mystery of God" is accomplished, but still a mystery as to our complete understanding of it.  That's why "pages and pages" can be written.

 

"For now we know in part, but we shall know as we are known".

 

Blessings,

 

Judith

 

 

 

 

I agree, that God has His times to reveal that "mystery" to His people, and actually a lot of the time on an individual basis to those one's called to be an Apostle, and only when they are called (like Apostle Paul's example especially). But that Rev.10 Scripture in relation to His OT prophets and that "mystery" shows us that He gave them to write by The Holy Spirit the events of His Plan of Salvation all the way to the end of this world.

 

So did Apostle Paul give us something new when he was using the word "mystery"? Actually no, because He taught from the OT Scripture when speaking of such matters. The difference is that many were not given to understand what those Scriptures were about yet, especially not until Christ died on the cross. But the info was already written back then, and has been there all along, which is what Rev.10 is revealing (John 5:39). Often now when I study OT Scripture I can see inklings that God made some of His people aware of His Plan early on, especially with Abraham (Heb.11; Gal.3; John 8).

[wingnut-]

Hi Salty,

 

The Gentiles could come into the blessing of knowing God before the Body of Christ. So why the `Body of Christ` now?

 

Marilyn.

 

Hello Marilyn,

 

Sorry to intrude in this conversation, but the simple answer to your question is this.  To go out and preach the gospel to every tongue and nation.  And rather than thinking of this group as "the church", think of them as believers.

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Salty,

 

However the gentiles could come in to Israel`s blessing prior to the Body of Christ. You still have not shown what purpose Christ has for building His Body.

 

Marilyn.

 

You have not shown Scripture evidence to back up man's theory of a pre-trib rapture, but instead are leaving the main topic of this thread.

 

I provided you with Biblical proof against that theory of man by what our Lord Jesus showed us in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 which aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 and 2 Thess.2. That's what you need to address.

 

Hi Salty,

 

I am not really leaving the topic for the purpose of God for Israel & the Body of Christ is the reason for the rapture. You can talk details till the cows come home but unless you know why God is doing something then we can all use scripture to our own advantage. So again I`ll point out a difference in regards to Israel & the Body of Christ. Now you seem to think that the gospels are for the Body of Christ, then how do you reconcile these two inheritances -

 

`Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.`  (Matt. 5: 5)

`Blessed be the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible & undefiled & that does not fade away reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 3 & 4)

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi Salty,

 

The Gentiles could come into the blessing of knowing God before the Body of Christ. So why the `Body of Christ` now?

 

Marilyn.

 

Hello Marilyn,

 

Sorry to intrude in this conversation, but the simple answer to your question is this.  To go out and preach the gospel to every tongue and nation.  And rather than thinking of this group as "the church", think of them as believers.

 

Hi wingnut,

 

The Gentiles could do that with out being put together by the Holy Spirit into a `Body.` There is more to the `Body` than just a collection of believers speaking of Jesus. And that will be a great topic to do this New year.

 

Marilyn

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Salty]

 

 

Hi Salty,

 

However the gentiles could come in to Israel`s blessing prior to the Body of Christ. You still have not shown what purpose Christ has for building His Body.

 

Marilyn.

 

You have not shown Scripture evidence to back up man's theory of a pre-trib rapture, but instead are leaving the main topic of this thread.

 

I provided you with Biblical proof against that theory of man by what our Lord Jesus showed us in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 which aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 and 2 Thess.2. That's what you need to address.

 

Hi Salty,

 

I am not really leaving the topic for the purpose of God for Israel & the Body of Christ is the reason for the rapture. You can talk details till the cows come home but unless you know why God is doing something then we can all use scripture to our own advantage. So again I`ll point out a difference in regards to Israel & the Body of Christ. Now you seem to think that the gospels are for the Body of Christ, then how do you reconcile these two inheritances -

 

`Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.`  (Matt. 5: 5)

`Blessed be the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible & undefiled & that does not fade away reserved in heaven for you.` (1 Peter 1: 3 & 4)

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Easy, both apply to Christ's Body, because both believing Israel and believing Gentiles make up that Body of Christ per Apostle Paul. The disconnect you've accepted actually originates from Judaism with their thinking that God is going isolate them in His future Kingdom.

 

Now the how, of heaven and earth together being in that inheritance, you'd first have to leave your fleshy thinking and realize that on the day of Christ's return the heavenly dimension is going to be revealed right here, on earth, and that especially when The Father returns to live upon this earth as He once did per Genesis with His Garden of Eden. Or didn't you understand the miracles of His River upon the earth, feeding other rivers on the earth and healing their waters, and the tree of life bearing its fruits per its months and the fruit never ending?

 

Until the Day of Christ's coming, the two dimensions of the heavenly and this earthly will remain separated, for none of us on earth can see God's Abode in Heaven unless He allows it. But His angels can come and go back and forth, and even manifest here on earth without being born in a flesh body.

 

Genesis 6

³ And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.