Who or what is the city which descends (Revelation 21:9)?

[Marilyn C]

The Lord`s Throne is His authority under the Father which is in the highest. It is NOT below ANYTHING!

[Dennis1209]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Dennis.

Yes, I believe you're correct.

Yes, but consider the size of this city! The Greek stadion (neuter; plural, stadia) is the same as the Roman stad which we can see by mile markers all over Europe and the Near East. Each stadion is 607.142222.. feet long. Multiply that number of feet by 12,000 and you get 7,285,706.66666... feet, and if you divide that number by 5,280 feet/mile, you will get 1,379.86868686... miles! Put that in perspective:

That's the distance from Tampa, FL, to Bar Harbor, ME! That distance is both the distance along the east and west walls from south to north, but it is also the distance along the north and south walls from east to west! That makes the perimeter of the city = 5,519.47474747... miles! Divide that by twelve, and one gets 460 (459.9562289) miles between gates! Furthermore, the height of the city is also the 1,379.868686... miles high! Rooms? I think those could be some SIZABLE rooms! From Florida to Maine?! Those rooms could be as big as ... well ... MANSIONS! LOL!

Will we need to sleep? I don't think so. Will we need to be protected from the elements? No, we're inside a massive city! What are these "rooms/mansions" for? Well, there's two things I can think of. First, they could be used for get-togethers. Having company over may be a common use for these "rooms." Second, someone (?) has suggested that these rooms may be trophy rooms displaying the many ways that YHWH God stepped in for this person and helped him/her throughout life.

That's beautiful! It's precisely what I believe, too.

I believe that the foundation stones are foundational to different parts of the city. That's why I believe that, as seen in my avatar above, each foundation is a different level of the city. Each foundational level has its own atmosphere, and like a pressurized cabin, every one of the twelve foundations will be as though it will be at sea level. 

It's literal. You will be able to eat from the "Tree of Life" species at any time. Our bodies will glow; that is, they actually give off light energy in the visible range, not just heat in the infrared range. I believe that we will give off more energy and be able to process food more completely. Thus, I believe that we will eliminate waste in a whole new way, perhaps burning off the food so that only gases are eliminated.

Sure, I have. Yeshua` is never said to be the "Tree of Life," and yes, it is a literal tree species. It produces 12 kinds of fruit and produces fruit every month. Whether that means that a different fruit is produced each month or that all 12 are produced each month, I don't know. The Scriptures are silent about that.

You mentioned a couple of things that never even crossed my mind, thanks!

[Dennis1209]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Dennis.

Yes, I believe you're correct.

Yes, but consider the size of this city! The Greek stadion (neuter; plural, stadia) is the same as the Roman stad which we can see by mile markers all over Europe and the Near East. Each stadion is 607.142222.. feet long. Multiply that number of feet by 12,000 and you get 7,285,706.66666... feet, and if you divide that number by 5,280 feet/mile, you will get 1,379.86868686... miles! Put that in perspective:

That's the distance from Tampa, FL, to Bar Harbor, ME! That distance is both the distance along the east and west walls from south to north, but it is also the distance along the north and south walls from east to west! That makes the perimeter of the city = 5,519.47474747... miles! Divide that by twelve, and one gets 460 (459.9562289) miles between gates! Furthermore, the height of the city is also the 1,379.868686... miles high! Rooms? I think those could be some SIZABLE rooms! From Florida to Maine?! Those rooms could be as big as ... well ... MANSIONS! LOL!

Will we need to sleep? I don't think so. Will we need to be protected from the elements? No, we're inside a massive city! What are these "rooms/mansions" for? Well, there's two things I can think of. First, they could be used for get-togethers. Having company over may be a common use for these "rooms." Second, someone (?) has suggested that these rooms may be trophy rooms displaying the many ways that YHWH God stepped in for this person and helped him/her throughout life.

That's beautiful! It's precisely what I believe, too.

I believe that the foundation stones are foundational to different parts of the city. That's why I believe that, as seen in my avatar above, each foundation is a different level of the city. Each foundational level has its own atmosphere, and like a pressurized cabin, every one of the twelve foundations will be as though it will be at sea level. 

It's literal. You will be able to eat from the "Tree of Life" species at any time. Our bodies will glow; that is, they actually give off light energy in the visible range, not just heat in the infrared range. I believe that we will give off more energy and be able to process food more completely. Thus, I believe that we will eliminate waste in a whole new way, perhaps burning off the food so that only gases are eliminated.

Sure, I have. Yeshua` is never said to be the "Tree of Life," and yes, it is a literal tree species. It produces 12 kinds of fruit and produces fruit every month. Whether that means that a different fruit is produced each month or that all 12 are produced each month, I don't know. The Scriptures are silent about that.

You mentioned a couple of things that never even crossed my mind, thanks!

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

You mentioned a couple of things that never even crossed my mind, thanks!

Regarding the size of the city, you might also want to reconsider any thought for a cube shape. We do have textual clues that the city will indeed land upon the New Earth, and tower above the New Sky. But, the base, stretching as far as Tampa, Florida, is from Bar Harbor, Maine, will follow the curvature of the earth. "Down" on one side of the city will be almost 20 degrees different than "down" on the other side of the city! That makes a "cube" out of the question: either the top will be too long for 1,379.868686... miles OR if the top is held to this distance, the bottom of the cube would be too short!

Because of the curvature, I believe the height of the city need only be in the center, and if all the sides diminish to the center, one would see a pyramid shape instead of a cube. Lots of well-meaning Christians have a problem with the pyramid shape because of cultish links today, but the pyramid is just a mathematic shape and is no more cultish in itself than is a pentagram. It depends on who is using it. And, if GOD is using his own mathematic shape of the pyramid, then what should we fear of that?

Besides, we have such verses as ...

Psalm 118:21-23 (KJV)

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation (liyshuw`aah = to yshuw`aah = to salvation).
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner (lro'sh pinnaah = to-head of-angle = to-a-capstone).
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

... and ...

Zechariah 4:6-7 (KJV)

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying,

"This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying,

"'Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit,'

"saith the LORD of hosts. 

7 "'Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone (haa'eVen haa'ro'shaah = "the-stone of-the-head" = "the capstone") thereof with shoutings, crying,

"'"Grace, grace unto it."'"

[other one]

When looking into the new city keep in mind that Chapter 21 begins that there is a new heaven and new earth because the old has passed away.  I believe that James tells us that it will be destroyed by fire hot enough to melt the elements.

Also consider that a city with the height described coming down to earth would not fit into the present laws of physics so we really need to consider that understanding  this city  should not be visualized in the framework of what exists now.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/12/2021 at 12:04 AM, Marilyn C said:

The Lord`s Throne is His authority under the Father which is in the highest. It is NOT below ANYTHING!

Shalom, Marilyn.

Consider this: You MAY be generalizing this "height" (which would be measured from the earth's surface, right?) a bit too much. If it is true that the earth is a sphere or at least a spheroid (and I believe it is), then "up" is in ALL directions from the center of the earth to its surface and beyond.

I would venture to guess that IF the Fire wipes out all the works of human beings (as we are told in Scripture), THEN that would include their space programs, as well as their air travel. Once again earth-bound, we will live at physical locations more or less from sea-level. When the New Jerusalem lands, the height of this city, being 1,380 miles high, will put all living space for human beings below the throne (if, as I surmise, the New Jerusalem will be pyramidal in shape). I find this surmise supported in the fact that the River of the Water of Life proceeds out of the throne and waters the entirety of the City, and I believe it will continue to exit from the City, through the gates, and onto the New Earth. 

I believe that we will need water still, whether for cleansing or for drinking, or God wouldn't have made the River. The Tree of Life will need the water of the River to grow. Furthermore, we are told that the species of the Tree of Life will grow on the banks of this River, wherever the street of the City goes within the City. Also, since the River goes wherever the street goes, then the River will also go to the gates of the City. This is why I believe that the River of the Water of Life will flow out of the gates of the City and will water the surface of the ground all around the New Jerusalem. This River, then, will be parted in TWELVE compass directions, and water the New Earth, as the original river of Eden was parted into four heads. The animals and plant life outside of the City will also need water to live.

In any case, 1,380 miles high is far above any place that mankind will exist. We are not "spiritual beings"; we are PHYSICAL BEINGS! That's what the word "soul" means! It means "an air-breathing creature!" In the Resurrection, God will give us powers beyond those we have now: We will glow like Moses' face did, like our Master did in the transfiguration, and as Paul tells us we will in 1 Corinthians 15, and we will have more than just a "breath"; we will BLAST air, like a "wind!" Furthermore, there are some Scriptures that suggest we, like our Lord, will be able to raise the dead (through God's power, of course), just as the original Twelve did!

Just some thoughts you might want to consider.

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, other one said:

When looking into the new city keep in mind that Chapter 21 begins that there is a new heaven and new earth because the old has passed away.  I believe that James tells us that it will be destroyed by fire hot enough to melt the elements.

Also consider that a city with the height described coming down to earth would not fit into the present laws of physics so we really need to consider that understanding  this city  should not be visualized in the framework of what exists now.

Shalom, other one.

While Peter tells us that the surface of the earth will indeed be subjected to the Fire, the whole planet need not be destroyed. The purpose of the Fire is to purge the earth of the works of mankind. We haven't gone lower than the earth's crust.

The City will fit just fine in the present laws of physics IF GOD REMAKES THE NEW EARTH is such a way as to DESIGN it to accomodate the City!

[other one]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, other one.

While Peter tells us that the surface of the earth will indeed be subjected to the Fire, the whole planet need not be destroyed. The purpose of the Fire is to purge the earth of the works of mankind. We haven't gone lower than the earth's crust.

The City will fit just fine in the present laws of physics IF GOD REMAKES THE NEW EARTH is such a way as to DESIGN it to accomodate the City!

My Bible says the earth will be burned up.   The Greek word there means to be consumed wholly or utterly burned up.  Still the physics that we live under today would not support a city that tall no matter how thick the walls are.

[Starise]

On 4/8/2017 at 6:49 AM, Limey_Bob said:

“¹Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.² I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. ³ And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ⁴ ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away ….  ⁹ One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” ¹⁰ And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. ¹¹” (Revelation 21:1-4 and 21:9-11, KJV).

 

⁵² in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. ⁵³ For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. ⁵⁴ When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” (1^st Corinthians 15:52-54, KJV).

 

I have heard of many descriptions of the city, which is mentioned at Revelation 21:2 and 10, which descends down from God out of heaven, as a literal cubic stone structure of enormous dimensions. But such an understanding is completely mistaken, as related verses (verses 2 and 9), describes this city as the bride, the wife of the lamb, which is an obvious description of the church, albeit, using poetic language. The context is the second coming of Christ, and it is either at this glorious event (or very shortly after it), that the deceased saints of God, who had been ruling and reigning with Christ, as disincarnate spirits (that is as “souls” Revelation 20:4), accompany Christ back to this earth, in order to then receive their now resurrected and glorified bodies (1^st Corinthians 15:52-53). This happens at the “last trump” (1^st Corinthians 15:52), and when this happens, death itself ends, which prevents the interpretation that this passage is referring to a thousand year earthly Millennial reign upon this earth, at the end of which there will be a war with more death then taking place (1^st Corinthians 15:54). So this “last trump” must refer to the second coming of Christ, it is also alluded to at (1^st Thessalonians 4:16), where it is associated with “the day of the Lord” (1^st Thessalonians 5:2), which can only imply the second coming of Jesus Christ.

A couple of things I'm picking up on this. I don't see the New Jerusalem being described as made of stone. From the text I gather the city that comes down is a solid structure OCCUPIED by the bride. WE are being relocated. The timeline says to me we ALREADY have our glorified bodies since this takes place after the last trump.

While the scriptures don't expressly say it's a pyramid, it could be. It could also be a cube. I maybe mistakenly seen Christ described as a capstone being the key support stone in an arch because this is also referred to in similar ways. The cap stone can also be the top to a pyramid. The chief corner stone is responsible structurally for holding everything else up. If you remove it the building falls.

Some think the city never actually comes totally to the earth but remains in earth orbit. This is also something not expressly described. Physical contact with the old earth is mostly assumed. In fact I haven't seen any indication beyond all doubt that the proximity of the city is close to the proximity of old earth. The first heaven and earth has "passed away". Old earth might be a mere relic asteroid drifting in space.

[Justin Adams]

Double check the numbers. Are they all in 25's, 50's or 100's? Are these all part of a multi dimensioned JUBILLEE rendition?

Edited October 13, 2021 by Justin Adams