An innocent child - heaven or hell?

[FresnoJoe]

On 5/8/2017 at 8:45 PM, Gluttonous Winebibber said:

In all the bible I never remember children and their return being mentioned, BUT, I do know that no dead child will return only to enter heaven (John 3:5), because all humans are first born of flesh, and later born of spirit, so this honor is reserved for the tried and true of the aged (sifted wheat and all that)....

However, with god being the all loving being that he is, it might seem plausible for them to be brought back to life....

I Think Dear David Teaches Us The Truth

David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked.

“Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.”

Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” 2 Samuel 12:19-23 (New International Version)

And If One Really Knows Jesus

For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6 (New American Standard Bible)

He Too Would Believe

But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said to them, "Allow the little children to come to me. Do not forbid them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Mark 10:14 (New Heart English Bible)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

[HAZARD]

2 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

I Think Dear David Teaches Us The Truth

David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked.

“Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.”

Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” 2 Samuel 12:19-23 (New International Version)

And If One Really Knows Jesus

For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6 (New American Standard Bible)

He Too Would Believe

But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said to them, "Allow the little children to come to me. Do not forbid them, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Mark 10:14 (New Heart English Bible)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

I posted this on page one, my first post on this thread;

Quote

"Yes, innocent children, who die before they reach the age of reason  go to heaven.

2 Sam. 12: 23, But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.

In other words, the child was taken to Heaven and David stated that he would see him when he himself dies."

The souls children who die before they reach the age of reason will not return to Earth, their souls go straight to Heaven upon death. Davids son did not return to Him, but David did die and went to Heaven and there he met his son again.

.

[PlanetChee]

11 hours ago, HAZARD said:

I totally agree! And that is also why infant baptism is a total waste of time.

Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture. There is not one word that mentions any such thing. On the contrary, it is clear from Scripture that baptism is only after men have repented and have been born again by the Spirit of God.

Infants are not lost due to the fact that they are not old enough to be responsible for any sins and therefore could not repent of known sins.

They cannot be fit candidates for water baptism which is a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and a testimony to the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that he is walking in newness of life.

Only personal disciples and followers of Jesus Christ were commanded to be baptised (Matt. 28:19-20; Mark. 38:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2: 38-39).

I don't think I can judge infant baptism as a waste of time. 

The Father tells us to train up our children in the way they should travel in righteousness. And as they grow older they will not depart from the path. 

I think baptizing an infant is a parents way of insuring the armor is secure on that journey. And I cannot gainsay a parents choice for their beloved child. 

[FresnoJoe]

14 hours ago, HAZARD said:

I posted this on page one, my first post on this thread;

Amen~!

[HAZARD]

On ‎23‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 1:25 AM, PlanetChee said:

I don't think I can judge infant baptism as a waste of time. 

The Father tells us to train up our children in the way they should travel in righteousness. And as they grow older they will not depart from the path. 

I think baptizing an infant is a parents way of insuring the armor is secure on that journey. And I cannot gainsay a parents choice for their beloved child. 

I'm no judging them, I'm stating a fact. New born babies have no idea of what is happening when water is sprinkled on their foreheads, which is not a true baptism. True baptism is being fully immersed in water.

How does one begin to train our children in the way they should travel in righteousness, before they can even speak one word?

Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture. There is not one word that mentions any such thing. On the contrary, it is clear from Scripture that baptism is only after men have repented and have been born again by the Spirit of God.

Infants are not lost due to the fact that they are not old enough to be responsible for any sins and therefore could not repent of known sins.

They cannot be fit candidates for water baptism which is a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and a testimony to the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that he is walking in newness of life.

Only personal disciples and followers of Jesus Christ were commanded to be baptised (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2: 38-39).

[PlanetChee]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

I'm no judging them, I'm stating a fact. New born babies have no idea of what is happening when water is sprinkled on their foreheads, which is not a true baptism. True baptism is being fully immersed in water.

How does one begin to train our children in the way they should travel in righteousness, before they can even speak one word?

Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture. There is not one word that mentions any such thing. On the contrary, it is clear from Scripture that baptism is only after men have repented and have been born again by the Spirit of God.

Infants are not lost due to the fact that they are not old enough to be responsible for any sins and therefore could not repent of known sins.

They cannot be fit candidates for water baptism which is a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and a testimony to the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that he is walking in newness of life.

Only personal disciples and followers of Jesus Christ were commanded to be baptised (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark. 38:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2: 38-39).

There is not one word that forbids baptism of infants. And a parents teaching of their children begins the day they are born. They teach them how to love by showing them love. They teach them patience by the example of patience. They teach them all manner of things by example. A child being baptized as an infant is not contrary to God's word. And a child that was baptized as an infant can always choose to receive baptism again when they're older . Meanwhile, they've been raised in the faith of Christ and by example of righteous parents they are carried on their way to that stage where they can make their own choices. 

 

[B3L13v3R]

The "crux" of the matter as mentioned by two others. Babies go to heaven! King David is now in heaven with his firstborn that died.
The same applies to ALL babies, born that die after a short time, or murdered in the womb by the sin of abortion:

2Samual 12:23  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

"Knower" Standing in with those three questions presented by Omega and wondering the same, Quote: "How about you, Knower? Are you aware of your sinfulness? Have you sought forgiveness from God, through His Son, Jesus Christ?"

Repent, and believe on the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ,and Him alone for the forgiveness of your sins!

Mark 1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Romans 10:8-13  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;  (9)  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  (10)  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  (11)  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.  (12)  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.  (13)  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary: (in part)
Repent
1. To feel pain, sorrow or regret for something done or spoken; as, to repent that we have lost much time in idleness or sensual pleasure; to repent that we have injured or wounded the feelings of a friend. A person repents only of what he himself has done or said.

2. To express sorrow for something past.
Enobarbus did before thy face repent.

3. To change the mind in consequence of the inconvenience or injury done by past conduct.
Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return. Exo 13.

4. Applied to the Supreme Being, to change the course of providential dealings. Gen 6. Psa 106.

5. In theology, to sorrow or be pained for sin, as a violation of God's holy law, a dishonor to his character and government, and the foulest ingratitude to a Being of infinite benevolence.

Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13. Acts 3.

[HAZARD]

On ‎23‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 0:58 PM, PlanetChee said:

There is not one word that forbids baptism of infants. And a parents teaching of their children begins the day they are born. They teach them how to love by showing them love. They teach them patience by the example of patience. They teach them all manner of things by example. A child being baptized as an infant is not contrary to God's word. And a child that was baptized as an infant can always choose to receive baptism again when they're older . Meanwhile, they've been raised in the faith of Christ and by example of righteous parents they are carried on their way to that stage where they can make their own choices. 

 

 Like I and the Scriptures prove there is not one word that commands infant baptism. The Scriptures also do not forbid plunging ones arm into boiling water as well, so does that mean we should do it?

Mark 16:15, And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. v. 16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ask a new born if it believes and see what reply you receive. Its common sense to teach children as soon as they are able to receive knowledge, but to talk about the Word and God's plan for mankind to newborn's would mean nothing to them at all to them.

[PlanetChee]

4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 Like I and the Scriptures prove there is not one word that commands infant baptism. The Scriptures also do not forbid plunging ones into boiling water as well, so does that mean we should do it?

Mark 16:15, And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. v. 16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ask a new born if it believes and see what reply you receive. Its common sense to teach children as soon as they are able to receive knowledge, but to talk about the Word and God's plan for mankind to newborn's would mean nothing to them at all to them.

There are many thou shalt not's in the scriptures. When there is not one that says thou shalt not deliver a child to the Lord through Baptism, it isn't for anyone to say it is not to be done. Because as should be obvious, it is not a bad thing that a child is washed clean as one born into a fallen world, and raised up as one dedicated to the path of Christ in the beginning of their journey in this life. 
Train up a child in the way they should go. And when they are old they will not depart from it. 

Mark 10:13-16 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

[OneLight]

If infant baptism was true, why did Jesus wait until he was around 30?   Baptism and dedication are two different ideas.  One can dedicate how they raise a child to God at any age, yet baptism has always been at a time when one chose to obey Christ and be baptized.  Nobody is denying a child to seek Christ if they do not baptize them as an infant.