Jesus' Return II

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command (a) , with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet (b) call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (c)

...................

(a) Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud

(b) seventh angel sounded his trumpet

(c) The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets

........................

 

(a) is the Rapture and has nothing to do with the Second Coming.

(b) Is a Trumpet of Wrath. Its not the Trumpet we are called home to, that is basically Jesus' voice being described as a Trumpet. John wrote Revelation well after Paul wrote that. Also the LAST TRUMP is speaking of the Feast of Trumps, which announces Pentecost has Ended and the Feast of Atonement is near....Thus the Church is Raptured (Church Age/Pentecost) and Israel REPENTS or ATONES like the 70th Week prophecy says they must do before the 70th Week is fulfilled. 

(c) I covered this.......

 

[fixerupper]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

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God is saving those IN CHRIST, His saints from the coming tribulation. Show me where Jesus in coming to the air, the clouds, to meet us in the air and take us to Heaven to protect us from the tribulation caused by the antichrist and his followers, show me where Jesus kills anyone?

I keep asking you guys WHERE the rapture takes place before the tribulation and nobody shows me where.  The rapture happens at the second coming...

Mathew 24:27

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Coming; Parousia...the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.

Mathew 24:29-31  Immediately after the tribulation of those days...then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

ELECT...

picked out, chosen

chosen by God,

to obtain salvation through Christ

Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

NO bible author ever said Christians would ever be removed from tribulation. Rather we are told that we are destined to endure it until Jesus Christ is glorified in his saints...I will never get tired of posting this scripture.  I know it debunks pre-trib.  

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I won't get sick of posting this either....

God didn't remove Noah and his family from the flood but saved them through it.
God didn't remove Daniel from the Lion's den but saved him through it.
God didn't remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace but saved them through it.
God didn't remove Job from his trials but help him through them.

God won't remove Christians from tribulation because 1 Thes. 3 says He won't!

Edited June 25, 2017 by fixerupper

[HAZARD]

Many peoples who do not take the antichrists mark or his name will finally turn to God and be saved. It is those who will be gathered after the tribulation.

 The purpose of the tribulation.

(1) To purify Israel and bring them back to a place where God can fulfil the everlasting covenants made with their fathers (Isa. 2:6; 3:26; 16:1-5; 24:1-25; 26:20, 21; Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22:17-22; Rom. 11;25-29).

(2) To purify Israel of all rebels (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22;17-22;  Zech. 13:8, 9; Mal. 3:3, 4).

(3) To plead with and bring Israel into bond with the new covenant (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 36:24-28; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10-13:9; mal. 4:3, 4).

(4) To Judge Israel and punish them for their rejection of the messiah and make them willing to accept Him when He comes the second time (Ezek. 20:33,34; Zech. 12:10-13:9; 14:1-15; Matt. 24:15-31).

(5) To Judge the nations for their persecution of Israel (Isa. 63:1-5; Joel 3; Rev. 6:-19:21).

(6) To bring Israel to complete repentance (Zech. 12:10-13;9 Rom. 11:26-29;  Matt. 23:39).

(7) To fulfil the prophecies of Dan. 9:24-27; Rev. 6:1-19; 21; Matt. 24:15, 29).

(8) To cause Isra to flee into the wilderness of Edom and Moab and to be so persecuted by the nations that Israel will have to turn to God for help (Isa. 16:1-5 Ezek. 20:33-35; Dan. 11:40-12:7; Hos. 2:14-17; Matt. 24:15-31; Rev. 12).

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31

 

Multitudes of people of many nations will also never take the mark of the beast and they will never be killed by the Antichrist for not doing so. The Bible speaks of many peoples of many nations that are left after the reign of the Antichrist, people who will be alive in the Millennium and will go up yearly to worship God (Zech. 14:16-21).

The ten kingdoms are to be formed inside the old Roman Empire from the present states in that territory. It is clear that there will be at least another war in Europe, Asia, and Africa in order for this to be fulfilled. When the ten kingdoms are formed, then Daniel 7:23-24 will be fulfilled. These ten kingdoms will be the Revised Roman Empire which is symbolized by the ten toes on the great image of Dan. 2, the ten horns on the fourth beast of Dan. 7:7-8, 19-24, the ten horns on the dragon and the beast of Rev. 12, 13, and 17. This formation of the ten kingdoms will be necessary to fulfill both Dan. 7 and 8.

 

Scripture also shows that the Arabs will protect Israel during the last three and one half years of this age. In Dan. 11:41 we read that Arabia or ancient Edom and Moab will escape the Antichrist. In Isa. 16:1-5; Ezek. 20:33-35; Matt. 24:15-21; Rev. 12:5-7 we read of Israel fleeing for protection into the wilderness of Edom and Moab, and since they escape the Antichrist and flee into this country for protection, then it is clear that the Arabs protect them during this time. The Bible names the very city in Edom and Moab that Israel will flee to for protection during the tribulation. It is Sela or Petra, the capital of Edom (Isa. 16:1-5; 26:20-21; 63:1-8).

[fixerupper]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, I am not the one misled. It is going to be just as John has told us: The day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal, and the rapture will take place a moment before that. Just so you know, the great earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction. You see, when the dead in Christ are raised, that will cause a worldwide earthquake as God instantly brings together those atoms or quarks that used to make up the bodies of those dead in Christ.

Most people would be surprised I were to compile a list of all the pre-trib contradictions and fabrications.  They are endless and many of the contradictions didn't surface until just a few years ago when your mentor Thomas Ice came up with more fabrications in his books.  

Even if one does believe God's Wrath begins at the sixth seal, that doesn't mean God removes people before it. 1 Thes. 3 says we are destined for it up to the time Jesus Christ is glorified in his saints.  You associate God's wrath being poured out during tribulation with judgmental wrath poured out at the end of it. That wrath is mentioned in the rapture of Revelation 14.  I keep telling you guys, but you don't care, "not being appointed to wrath" is attributed to salvation, not a rapture. It's not even found in a rapture passage.  Neither has any pre-tribber made any sense out of the rapture happening in Revelation 4:1 or elsewhere!

It really is a no-brainer.  There's one rapture and one return of Christ and it all happens, or begins to happen, here...

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.  (TRIBULATION SAINTS are a fabrication)

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here we have harvest mentioned in Mathew 13.  

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 14:17-20 is the resurrection of the wicked or the tares.

I can admit I don't have Revelation 14 completely figured out.  I know one thing, it happens here in Revelation 14.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. *And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Notice too that the angel in Rev 14:18 is said to have power over fire and fire is also mentioned in Mathew 13:39-42.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Joel 3:13 13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow -- For their wickedness is great."

The tribulation has a purpose.  It's to purify the Church by bringing it to repentance, and to restore Israel.  The rapture happens in Revelation 14 just before God's wrath is poured out in the vials so that Christians aren't the recipients of, and God is not guilty of, "friendly fire" like the plagues in chapter 15.  The events between Revelation 11 and 19 happen in a short period of time probably less than 3 months. 

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At that moment in time, two groups of people will get two different results: those living in Christ, in the light of the gospel, will get "salvation" or raptured, and get to live together with Him (so shall we ever be with the Lord).

...that moment in time...that is the question

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At the same moment in time, those living in darkness cannot escape. They will suffer through this sudden destruction earthquake. This is logical because it is what is written. Always remember, Jesus is coming for those EXPECTING His coming and watching for Him. It is my guess that those not watching will not even hear the trumpet or the shout.

I love how you support your argument, "This is logical because it is what is written.."  Everyone suffers tribulation.  You just don't care that 1 Thes. 3:3-9 tell us that we are to suffer affliction/tribulations.  In fact, the passage encourages us to NOT BE DISTURBED or troubled about them because they are APPOINTED to us.  Not only that, Paul was telling the Thessalonians he told them before that they should suffer tribulation; AND that their patience and faith in all their persecutions and tribulations they endure are a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.  Paul even goes on further to say that it's a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Pretrib completely contradicts 1 Thes. 3 and you guys don't care.

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Take careful note: that great crowd seen around the throne - that crowd too large to number - they were seen by John in Rev. 7, not in Rev. 19 where you imagine the saints might be seen after being gathered.

Take a careful note: The crowed seen around the throne are people that were resurrected by Christ when he rose.  These are not raptured saints!

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Did you not notice that the church age martyrs - those seen at the 5th seal - were told they had to wait for the very last martyr before it would be time for judgment? What will cause the very last martyr to be the very last of the church age? Of course the END of the church age. And what will end the church age (and what comes next after the 5th seal?) ? It will end with the pretrib coming of Jesus to get His Bride.

Did you ever notice these martyrs are not tribulation martyrs and the text doesn't imply that. It surprises me you can't see the fabrication.  The church age ends at the parousia which happens at the end of tribulation when Jesus Christ is glorified in his saints!

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Did you just overlook the fact that John shows the marriage and supper IN HEAVEN before Jesus even descends as shown in Rev. 19? Posttribbers have to rearrange things to fit their theory. The truth is, the saints are ALREADY THERE in heaven ready for the marriage and supper. This is the logical evidence I go by. It is scripture rightly divided.

He does?  You're telling me that the marriage supper of the Lamb documented in Revelation 19:9 happens before Jesus descends?  How in the world do you guys fall for this stuff!  I mean this is really impressive!

The marriage supper is mentioned in Rev. 19:9.  Jesus returning on a white horse in Rev. 19:11.  There's probably less than a three month period between Revelation 11 on up to Rev. 19.  You're argument really is moot saying such a thing about the marriage supper since you claim the rapture happens before revelation 6!  This is really impressive LAMAD.

Edited June 26, 2017 by fixerupper

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Its actually a ressurection unless we have Christ coming 3 Times now.

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Its the Second Coming. Jesus is everywhere all the time, wherever two or more are gathered in my name I will be in midst of them. Jesus comes and calls us home to be with him. Rev. 19 tells us this, all we have to do is read it, we marry the lamb, then come back with him, while the Anti-Christ is on earth. The Second Coming is a misnomer anyway. Jesus came back may time to greet the Disciples after he went to be with the Father in Heaven.

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is ironic since the jewish idiom for feast of trumpets is judging the dead.

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Well we do go to Heaven and marry the Lamb at this time. We wouldn't do that if we were not Judged as Righteous in the Blood of the Lamb. The point is the Trumpet  Judgments in Revelation has nothing to do with the Church but is Wrath designed against the World and its inhabitants.

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

No where does it say tribulation saints

Also and for rewarding your servants the prophets

No rewarding before the 7th trumpet that means no rapture before the 7th trumpet....

Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

And that reward is the tree of life

Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

No tree of life before the 7th trumpet for his prophets and servants, that means no ressurection before the 7th trumpet for his prophets and servants.....only at the 7th trumpet....just like we see with the 2 witnesses which occurs at the 7th trumpet...christ coming with his reward AT the 7th trumpet. 

 

Once again, the Rapture has already happened. The Trumpet in Revelation has nothing to do with the Rapture or the Second coming, Jesus returns at the Seventh Vial. The Saints who died will be rewarded and Judged right away, they the Rev. 20:4 Judgment seats to Judge the Beheaded. The rest have t wait a 1000 years. 

Rev. is not in chronological order.The Seventh Trump only brings forth the Seven Vials of Gods Judgment.

In my other post I placed all three passages together, its clear that the Tribulation Saints are what is being spoken of, at least to me.

The Two Witnesses die at the end of the 2nd Woe, which is the 6th Trumpet, the the Seventh Trumpet sounds which is the 3rd Woe.

[fixerupper]

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The Tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the seventieth week begins. And when the Antichrist rises at the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergoing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revised Rome who are dominated by the whore until the middle of the week. The Antichrist will make a seven years covenant with Israel assuring them protection in their continued establishment as a nation, Dan. 9:27.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the old world and begins to murder all heretics as it has done in the past. Because Jews will not submit, there will be a widespread persecution of the Jews and “theywill be hated of all nations” during the time of “the beginning of sorrows” when the Antichrist will be endeavoring to conquer all these nations, Matt. 24:4-12.

Antichrist will need Jewish moral and financial support to help him rise over these nations, so he will make an alliance with them for seven years. Therefore, the time of the Tribulation is during the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, Dan. 9:27. It will end at the second Advent, Matt. 24:29-31

Yep!  That's it in a nutshell.  Maybe you could start by explaining how Catholicism is such a threat to the world today.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism???  Catholicism is losing ground and influence in the Middle-East and across the world.  What makes you think the Pope of Rome wants to or could ever do such a thing as convert Israel to Catholicism?  I mean really now, lets use a little logic here.

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

Yep!  That's it in a nutshell.  Maybe you could start by explaining how Catholicism is such a threat to the world today.

The Jews will not accept Catholicism???  Catholicism is losing ground and influence in the Middle-East and across the world.  What makes you think the Pope of Rome wants to or could ever do such a thing as convert Israel to Catholicism?  I mean really now, lets use a little logic here.

She is a threat and always will be. Notice the Catholic religion calls herself a woman. The Bible calls Catholicism a whore, and what a GREAT WHORE she is—committing spiritual fornication with the kings and rulers of the earth (nearly every king throughout history has had some type of political, economic or religious ties with the Vatican). Read about how Nazi Germany and the Vatican worked together to murder millions of innocent Jews in the holocaust!   Read the Vatican holocaust, "She's Drunken with the blood of the saints. Study the Inquisitions—the torture and killing of tens-of-millions of people. "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists (Popes and priests); whereby we know that it is the last time" —1st John 2:18

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color (official Vatican colors), and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls (the Vatican is filthy rich), having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations (the Holocaust, inquisitions, etc.) and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY (very few people realize where the Catholic religion started), BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS (who seduce people into their damnable religion) AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” —Revelation 17:4,5.

 

 

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fixerupper

"what makes you think the Pope of Rome wants to or could ever do such a thing as convert Israel to Catholicism?  I mean really now, lets use a little logic here."

You say, "Lets use a little logic here." You make me laugh with your lack of logic

They Roman Catholic church tried to destroy the Jews in days gone by and will try and convert them when the Antichrist is revealed but the Jews will not accept Catholicism when it again dominates the nations of the world and begins to murder all heretics as it did in the past. 

[HAZARD]

Notice the pictures below with an upside-down cross. In his article, The Kingdom of Satan, Professor J.S. Malan says this about the inverted cross . . . 

"This cross is not broken, but turned upside down. It indicates the rejection of Jesus Christ and contempt for the gospel of salvation. Inverted symbols are typical of the opposite values pursued by Satanists. People who are sometimes sacrificed to Satan on Black Sabbath are crucified upside down in accordance with this tradition."

It is easy to find Satanic websites and occult stores where you can purchase all types of items with inverted crosses. The "Upside Down Cross” symbolizes mockery and rejection of Jesus. Necklaces are worn by many Satanists. It can often be seen on Rock singers and their album covers."

“...and no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light”
—2nd Corinthians 11:14.

And the Bent Cross, The "Bent Cross" is a grotesque emaciated depiction of Jesus Christ, the only Son of God who died to provide salvation for those who believe in Him. This scepter is used by the Popes on many occasions. Its occult ramifications and connections cannot be disregarded.

The Catholic religion often calls herself the "Mother Church." She's NOT the mother of Christ's church! By calling herself "mother" she is telling on herself. Is this the abomination spoken of in the Scriptures? . . .

THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH

(Revelation 17:5)! 

Bottom two pictures,Pope John Paul II and the the Bent Cross.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

 Paul even goes on further to say that it's a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Pretrib completely contradicts 1 Thes. 3 and you guys don't care.

Did you not read what Paul wrote? REST WITH US! We will be returning WITH HIM on white horses, and will be completely at rest, for we will have our resurrection bodies. And at that time, Jesus will certainly take vengeance.  This verse does not say what you want it to say - indeed need it to say to fit your theory.

Why is it you don't understand simple verses? Ah! It is those pesky preconceived glasses again. I suggest you throw them away, and start over with End times 101.  I have a novel idea: form your doctrine from what the texts really say - all the end times texts put together and left IN CONTEXT.

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Most people would be surprised I were to compile a list of all the pre-trib contradictions and fabrications.  They are endless

You are sadly mistaken, my friend. The TRUTH has no contradictions. God is pretrib and Jesus will certainly come for His own before the 70th week and God's wrath begins.

 

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

...that moment in time...that is the question

It is no question if you believe what Paul wrote: he tells us that this "sudden destruction" earthquake is the start of the Day of the Lord. And that is EXACTLY what John tells us. You see, Paul TIES his rapture to the 6th seal and start of the DAy of His wrath. No wonder Paul wrote that he did not need to tell them about times and seasons. He had already done it when he was there with them. But, having wrote it, he still included timing.

It was no mistake in timing that John then SAW the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter. I guess you just did not notice that this crowd was seen in heaven BEFORE the 70th week.  This means PREtrib. So we have Paul and we have John in complete agreement that the rapture will come before the 70th week.

My guess is, you don't even know where the 70th week begins in Revelation. Yet you are here attempting to teach others.

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

He does?  You're telling me that the marriage supper of the Lamb documented in Revelation 19:9 happens before Jesus descends?  How in the world do you guys fall for this stuff!  I mean this is really impressive!

The marriage supper is mentioned in Rev. 19:9.  Jesus returning on a white horse in Rev. 19:11.  There's probably less than a three month period between Revelation 11 on up to Rev. 19.  You're argument really is moot saying such a thing about the marriage supper since you claim the rapture happens before revelation 6!  This is really impressive LAMAD.

This is a classic case of someone who THINKS they know, when in fact, they don't. And you are here to teach others?

Not read closely:

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

⁹ And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Please notice the numbers someone has added to assist us: 7 comes before 9 and 9 comes before 11. John tells us the the marriage has COME. Can you see that this comes BEFORE Jesus gets on the white horse?

I see you don't even know where the midpoint of the week is. Allow me to assist you here: the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week. So from that day to the 7th vial that ends the week will be 3 1/2 years. There goes your theory...

Have you not read of the many testimonies we have available of people whom God has taken to heaven to SEE IT, and come back and write? Several of these have SEEN with their own two eyes the preparations for the marriage supper: tables spread as far as the eye can see. (Remember, this crowd will be too large to number!) Some have been told that the preparations are complete and they are just waiting on the Bride to come. Since what they have seen fits perfectly with scripture, I BELIEVE them.

Do you remember Daniel writing about the 3 1/2 years, then about the 1260 days + 30 more, for 1290 days? Well, the 1260 days will be over at the 7th vial in chapter 16, but Jesus does not return until chapter 19. Could it be that the 1290th day might have something to do with His coming and the battle of Armageddon, where Jerusalem is finally set free?

Edited June 26, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Once again, the Rapture has already happened. The Trumpet in Revelation has nothing to do with the Rapture or the Second coming, Jesus returns at the Seventh Vial. The Saints who died will be rewarded and Judged right away, they the Rev. 20:4 Judgment seats to Judge the Beheaded. The rest have t wait a 1000 years. 

Rev. is not in chronological order.The Seventh Trump only brings forth the Seven Vials of Gods Judgment.

In my other post I placed all three passages together, its clear that the Tribulation Saints are what is being spoken of, at least to me.

The Two Witnesses die at the end of the 2nd Woe, which is the 6th Trumpet, the the Seventh Trumpet sounds which is the 3rd Woe.

I don't know your reference point for your first statement here. If it is at the 7th trumpet, I agree. If it is at the 7th seal, I will still agree. The rapture will come just before the 6th seal.

Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial! If you notice, there are the chapters 17 and 18 events that happen AFTER the 7th vial and BEFORE Christ comes. That time will probably be taken up in heaven by the marriage and supper.

WHO SAID Revelation is not in chronological order? Did John tell us this? NO! It is only human imagination. The truth is, it is very much in chronological order as much as is possible with several things happening nearly at the same time. The exception is parentheses, of which John has several.

Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The point is the Trumpet  Judgments in Revelation has nothing to do with the Church but is Wrath designed against the World and its inhabitants.

Now this I can agree with: good job! The trumpets are judgments and will come in the first half of the week: all but the 7th that will mark the midpoint.

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Two Witnesses die at the end of the 2nd Woe, which is the 6th Trumpet, the the Seventh Trumpet sounds which is the 3rd Woe.

This is simply not true. You have not recognized that 11:4 through 11:13 is written as a parenthesis and has no bearing on chronology. Here is what will happen:

 

3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, the man of sin will arrive in Jerusalem with His Gentile (should I say Muslim?) armies. After all, he MUST get himself to Jerusalem to enter the temple there. It seems the moment he arrives, so do the two witnesses: they will arrive just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint and begin their testimony, which is 1260 days. So that will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and rise up on the last day - the very same time all the Old Testament saints rise. (Notice the world's worst earthquake then).