Pre-Tribulation Proofs

[Dennis1209]

10 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

ScottA, I have decided to answer each of your so-called proofs. Since I can't give you hours and hours of time in one block, I'll start with the first and work my way through them commenting when I can. I am by no means a classic post-tribulationist. What I believe is the ancient understanding of the church, however, today it is identified by a relatively new name, pre-wrath. For 30 years I taught the pre-trib model and became very skillful at defending it. I read and followed the men at the forefront of the defense of pre-tribulationism, but God in His mercy opened my heart and mind to my own eisegesis and hermeneutical gymnastics, and I repented. I now proclaim the simple truth that the Prophets, Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John all say the same thing when it comes to the Lord's singular future second coming, and that the great tribulation and the wrath on the day of the Lord are mutually exclusively of each other.

This a rebutal of 47 supposed "Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)"

1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ.

First of all, any argument from silence is logically fallacious. Because it isn't mentioned, doesn't make it not so, what makes it not so is that Rev 19:11-21 isn't the day of Jesus' appearing or revelation. Rev 19:11-21 describes His activity later in the period known as the day of the Lord. It specifically refers to the destruction of the Antichrist and the armies that follow him. Notice that it is said that His vesture is stained with blood. This is the blood of His enemies. He has been treading the nations in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. By this point the church has long since been removed from the earth.

It is at Christ's coming, right after He is seen in the clouds of heaven that the dead are raised incorruptible and the living believers are changed and both are caught up by the angels to be with Jesus (Matt 24:30-31; 1Thes 4:15-17). The rapture happens at some point in the second half of the week upon Christ's return following the cosmic sign that Joel mentions.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel says that the day of the Lord must be preceded by the cosmic sign involving the darkening of the sun, and the moon. Isaiah adds to that the stars also.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Jesus mentions that this cosmic sign comes immediately after the great tribulation. Next He says that His return, His appearing, follows the cosmic sign.  After that He says that the rapture, the catching up of the saints by the angels, follows His appearing.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel tells us that there is a resurrection after the unparalleled time of trouble that begins in the middle of the week.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What resurrection is this? Paul tells us that there are only two resurrections to come, the first and the second.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul says one will take place at Christ's parousia and the other after the end of the millennium rebellion of Satan is put down. This is exactly what we find was revealed to John.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the damned, it is those who will experience the second death. Paul tells us that there is only one resurrection of the just unto eternal life. It takes place on the day of Christ or on day of the Lord, both begin at Jesus' singular second coming.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So we see the resurrection unto life takes place at Christ's return following the great tribulation, but before the wrath of God is poured out upon the day of the Lord.

Rev 19:11-21 comes after the trumpet and vial judgements.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

[Steve Conley]

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

What a great comfort it is to know that the dead in Christ shall rise and Jesus will take them with Him when He returns. That is the context of the verse you quote, I trust that you understand that.

2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

We, the persecuted church, will only ever have rest when Jesus reveals Himself with all the Holy angels to the whole world (Rev 1:7). Our persecutors, the Beast worshipers, will hide from the face of Him, because His wrath will be poured upon them suddenly (1Thes 5:2-3) the very same day He appears (Luke 17:26-30). But we who are alive and remain to the end of great tribulation shall be changed (1Cor 15:51-52; Phil 3:20-21) after our brethren are resurrected and we together with them will be gathered by the angels unto Jesus in the clouds (1Thes 4:16-17; Matt 24 31), and taken to the Fathers house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17). After this His wrath is poured out upon the earth dwellers in the day of the Lord.

Jesus' return for us is indeed our blessed hope. It has always been Him not the catching up. Most certainly we will be raptured, but He is our blessed hope.

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

May our gracious Lord preserve you blameless unto His coming.

Hallelujah

[ScottA]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

ScottA, I have decided to answer each of your so-called proofs. Since I can't give you hours and hours of time in one block, I'll start with the first and work my way through them commenting when I can. I am by no means a classic post-tribulationist. What I believe is the ancient understanding of the church, however, today it is identified by a relatively new name, pre-wrath. For 30 years I taught the pre-trib model and became very skillful at defending it. I read and followed the men at the forefront of the defense of pre-tribulationism, but God in His mercy opened my heart and mind to my own eisegesis and hermeneutical gymnastics, and I repented. I now proclaim the simple truth that the Prophets, Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John all say the same thing when it comes to the Lord's singular future second coming, and that the great tribulation and the wrath on the day of the Lord are mutually exclusively of each other.

This a rebutal of 47 supposed "Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)"

1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ.

First of all, any argument from silence is logically fallacious. Because it isn't mentioned, doesn't make it not so, what makes it not so is that Rev 19:11-21 isn't the day of Jesus' appearing or revelation. Rev 19:11-21 describes His activity later in the period known as the day of the Lord. It specifically refers to the destruction of the Antichrist and the armies that follow him. Notice that it is said that His vesture is stained with blood. This is the blood of His enemies. He has been treading the nations in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. By this point the church has long since been removed from the earth.

It is at Christ's coming, right after He is seen in the clouds of heaven that the dead are raised incorruptible and the living believers are changed and both are caught up by the angels to be with Jesus (Matt 24:30-31; 1Thes 4:15-17). The rapture happens at some point in the second half of the week upon Christ's return following the cosmic sign that Joel mentions.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel says that the day of the Lord must be preceded by the cosmic sign involving the darkening of the sun, and the moon. Isaiah adds to that the stars also.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Jesus mentions that this cosmic sign comes immediately after the great tribulation. Next He says that His return, His appearing, follows the cosmic sign.  After that He says that the rapture, the catching up of the saints by the angels, follows His appearing.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel tells us that there is a resurrection after the unparalleled time of trouble that begins in the middle of the week.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What resurrection is this? Paul tells us that there are only two resurrections to come, the first and the second.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul says one will take place at Christ's parousia and the other after the end of the millennium rebellion of Satan is put down. This is exactly what we find was revealed to John.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the damned, it is those who will experience the second death. Paul tells us that there is only one resurrection of the just unto eternal life. It takes place on the day of Christ or on day of the Lord, both begin at Jesus' singular second coming.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So we see the resurrection unto life takes place at Christ's return following the great tribulation, but before the wrath of God is poured out upon the day of the Lord.

Rev 19:11-21 comes after the trumpet and vial judgements.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Steve,

I believe you have me confuse with KiwiChristian who made the Original Post. It was not I who gave the list of 47 would-be proofs of a pre-trib rapture.

On the contrary, if "rapture" is the term to be used, it is merely a reference to the transition from death to life, which only happens once, and only to the One, the only begotten.

[Steve Conley]

5 hours ago, ScottA said:

Steve,

I believe you have me confuse with KiwiChristian who made the Original Post. It was not I who gave the list of 47 would-be proofs of a pre-trib rapture.

On the contrary, if "rapture" is the term to be used, it is merely a reference to the transition from death to life, which only happens once, and only to the One, the only begotten.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I apologize ScottA, I guess since your comments had the list on them I some how got it into my head that it was from you. So, are you saying that you are not a pre-tribulationist?

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Steve Conley]

On 9/4/2017 at 10:56 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)

1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ.

2. Zechariah 14:1-5 does not mention a resurrection at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Why?

3. Not one Old Testament or NT passage which discusses the tribulation mentions the church.

4. The unknown day of the rapture, and the known day of the glorious appearing, cannot be the same day. Matthew 25:13.

5. ‘A door was opened in heaven’ (Rev. 4:1) to let John into heaven, is before the tribulation (Rev. 6).

6. ‘Come up hither’ (Rev 4:1). A voice called John to ‘come up hither’. Immediately he was in heaven.

7. The church is not on earth from Revelation 4-18, because of these observations:

i) The church on earth is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3, but not once on earth from Rev. 5-19.
ii) The church is in heaven with resurrected bodies from Revelation 4-19 as seen by 9 statements.

8. The Rapture of the 24 elders of the church age (Revelation 4:1-11) occurs before the antichrist is revealed as the white horse rider at the beginning of the 7 years tribulation in Revelation 6:1,2.

The 24 Elders represent Old Testament and church age Christians raptured before the tribulation (Rev 5:9)

9. The 24 elders have their crowns of gold (Revelation 4:4).

10. The armies in heaven that follow Jesus Christ at His glorious appearing are church age Christians (Rev 19:14). They are not angels because Rev 19:8 reveals that the fine linen they are wearing is the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8).

11. We are waiting for and looking for Jesus Christ to come and take us to heaven at the rapture. 12. ‘Wherefore comfort one another with these words’ (I Thessalonians 4:18).

13. ‘I also will keep thee out of (Greek: Τηρησω εк) the hour of temptation (the tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth’ (Revelation 3:10).

14. Jesus returns from a Wedding to the church in heaven after the 7 years Tribulation. Luke 12:36.

15. The Restrainer (the church) will be taken out of the way before the antichrist is revealed at the start of the 7 year tribulation. (II Thessalonians 2:6-8).

16. At the rapture, Jesus receives us to Himself in heaven. We do not receive Him on earth (John 14:3)

17. The gathering of the tribulation elect after the 7 years tribulation is done by angels, but the gathering of the church is done by Jesus Christ Himself. (Matthew 24:31).

18. The righteous and wicked both can’t be taken first. Matthew 13:30,49.

19. Question 20: If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? (Matthew 25:31-46).

20. Question 21: Who will populate the millennium?

If a post-tribulation rapture occurs at the glorious appearing and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Nobody will be left with mortal, reproducing bodies. 21. Question 22: The judgment of Israel is discussed in Ezekiel 20:38, ‘I will purge out from among you the rebels.’ If all the saved (including saved Jews) had previously been separated a few days earlier by the rapture, there would be no need to separate saved Jews and lost Jews after Jesus Christ’s coming.

22. 14 Contrasts between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing prove they are different events.

23. The Tribulation is called the time of Jacob’s trouble not the church’s trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). Question 25: How can the tribulation be called Jacob’s trouble for Israel and a blessed hope for the church, if both groups must go through it?

24. The focus of the Tribulation in the book of Revelation 7-18 on earth is on Israel, not the church:

25. The holy apostles and prophets who rejoice over Babylon’s destruction are in heaven. Rev 18:20

26. ‘The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night’ (I Thessalonians 5:2).

27. ‘They’, ‘them’ and ‘they’ refer to unbelievers left behind after the rapture in I Thessalonians 5:3.

28. The church will not be ‘overtaken by the day of the Lord’ (I Thessalonians 5:4).

29. ‘For God hath not appointed us to wrath (of the tribulation), but to obtain salvation (deliverance from the tribulation) by our Lord Jesus Christ.’ (I Thessalonians 5:9).

‘Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath (tribulation) to come.’ (I Thessalonians 1:10). 1500

30. It is the character of God to deliver His own people from the greatest times of trials.

31. The ‘falling away’ (646) in II Thessalonians 2:3 is ‘the departure’ of the church and of the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, before the antichrist is revealed. ‘Falling away’ (646) in Greek is ‘η apostasia’ a noun meaning something separative, a departure such as divorce (647), apostasy.

32. Only the pre-tribulation rapture position does not confuse the church and Israel, the church and the elect in different ages, tribulations and the tribulation period, and the trumpet of God and the trumpets of angels.

33. There is a time interval between Christ coming for his saints at the rapture of the church (Rev 4:1) and Christ coming with His saints at the glorious return of Christ (Rev. 19:11-21; Zechariah 14:1-5). If the rapture and glorious appearing occurred simultaneously, there would be no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10), the presenting of the church to Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27), and the marriage of Christ to the church to take place. This time interval is stated in John 14:3. 34. Some people will escape the tribulation period. (Luke 21:34-36).

35. The church is not in Daniel’s 69 weeks period (Daniel 9:24-27), so it should not be in the70th week.

36. The structure of the book of Revelation proves the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

37. At the rapture, believers go straight to the Father’s house (John 14:3), not straight back to earth as post-tribulationists think. ‘I will receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.’

38. The two purposes of Daniel’s 70th week are to test earth dwellers (Revelation 3:10) and to prepare Israel for the King (Malachi 4:5,6). These have no relation to the church whatsoever.

39. If the church enters the tribulation of God’s wrath, judgment and punishment, then because of her union with Christ, Christ would be subject to the same wrath, judgment and punishment of God.

40. The Silence in the New Testament Epistles on how to endure the tribulation.

41. The Relation of the church to earthly governments.

42. The Destiny of the church is to heaven (John 14:2,3). The destiny of the saved in the tribulation is not to heaven, but to the earth in the millennium.

‘Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom.’ (Matthew 25:34).

43. The doctrine of imminence (at any moment coming) forbids the church entering the tribulation.

44. The 144,000 Israelite preachers in the tribulation are not part of the church. (Revelation 7:14).

45. The only organized church in the tribulation is the apostate Jezebel system (Revelation 2:22) and the harlot system (Rev. 17,18). The true church, is nowhere mentioned on earth in the tribulation.

46. The 7 promises to the true church to be removed before the tribulation.

47. The church is the object of Christ’s love, not the object of Christ’s wrath (Ephesians 5:25). Question 51: Why would a bridegroom want to punish his new bride? Would you do this?
 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

KiwiChristian, I have decided to answer each of your so-called proofs. Since I can't give you hours and hours of time in one block, I'll start with the first and work my way through them commenting when I can. I am by no means a classic post-tribulationist. What I believe is the ancient understanding of the church, however, today it is identified by a relatively new name, pre-wrath. For 30 years I taught the pre-trib model and became very skillful at defending it. I read and followed the men at the forefront of the defense of pre-tribulationism, but God in His mercy opened my heart and mind to my own eisegesis and hermeneutical gymnastics, and I repented. I now proclaim the simple truth that the Prophets, Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John all say the same thing when it comes to the Lord's singular future second coming, and that the great tribulation and the wrath on the day of the Lord are mutually exclusively of each other.

This a rebutal of 47 supposed "Proofs of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Errors of Post-Tribulation Rapture)"

1. Revelation 19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection at the time of the glorious return of Christ.

First of all, any argument from silence is logically fallacious. Because it isn't mentioned, doesn't make it not so, what makes it not so is that Rev 19:11-21 isn't the day of Jesus' appearing or revelation. Rev 19:11-21 describes His activity later in the period known as the day of the Lord. It specifically refers to the destruction of the Antichrist and the armies that follow him. Notice that it is said that His vesture is stained with blood. This is the blood of His enemies. He has been treading the nations in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. By this point the church has long since been removed from the earth.

It is at Christ's coming, right after He is seen in the clouds of heaven that the dead are raised incorruptible and the living believers are changed and both are caught up by the angels to be with Jesus (Matt 24:30-31; 1Thes 4:15-17). The rapture happens at some point in the second half of the week upon Christ's return following the cosmic sign that Joel mentions.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel says that the day of the Lord must be preceded by the cosmic sign involving the darkening of the sun, and the moon. Isaiah adds to that the stars also.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Jesus mentions that this cosmic sign comes immediately after the great tribulation. Next He says that His return, His appearing, follows the cosmic sign.  After that He says that the rapture, the catching up of the saints by the angels, follows His appearing.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel tells us that there is a resurrection after the unparalleled time of trouble that begins in the middle of the week.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What resurrection is this? Paul tells us that there are only two resurrections to come, the first and the second.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul says one will take place at Christ's parousia and the other after the end of the millennium rebellion of Satan is put down. This is exactly what we find was revealed to John.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second resurrection is the resurrection of the damned, it is those who will experience the second death. Paul tells us that there is only one resurrection of the just unto eternal life. It takes place on the day of Christ or on day of the Lord, both begin at Jesus' singular second coming.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So we see that the resurrection unto life takes place at Christ's return following the great tribulation, but before the wrath of God is poured out upon the day of the Lord.

Rev 19:11-21 comes after the trumpet and vial judgements.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

[ScottA]

4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I apologize ScottA, I guess since your comments had the list on them I some how got it into my head that it was from you. So, are you saying that you are not a pre-tribulationist?

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Indeed, I am not a pre-tribulationist...or a post, but rather an "in the world you shall have tribulation-ist."

[Daniel 11:36]

You need to go further with your study of the prophetic scriptures in order to understand what is coming

The Lord was crucified at the end of the 69th week .... He will bring the 70th week when He is ready 

[Dennis1209]

18 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

What a great comfort it is to know that the dead in Christ shall rise and Jesus will take them with Him when He returns. That is the context of the verse you quote, I trust that you understand that.

2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

We, the persecuted church, will only ever have rest when Jesus reveals Himself with all the Holy angels to the whole world (Rev 1:7). Our persecutors, the Beast worshipers, will hide from the face of Him, because His wrath will be poured upon them suddenly (1Thes 5:2-3) the very same day He appears (Luke 17:26-30). But we who are alive and remain to the end of great tribulation shall be changed (1Cor 15:51-52; Phil 3:20-21) after our brethren are resurrected and we together with them will be gathered by the angels unto Jesus in the clouds (1Thes 4:16-17; Matt 24 31), and taken to the Fathers house to stand before the throne (John 14:3; Rev 7:9-17). After this His wrath is poured out upon the earth dwellers in the day of the Lord.

Jesus' return for us is indeed our blessed hope. It has always been Him not the catching up. Most certainly we will be raptured, but He is our blessed hope.

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

May our gracious Lord preserve you blameless unto His coming.

Hallelujah

Hi Steve,

We're all entitled to our hermeneutic understanding. Personally I'm a staunch pre-tribulationalist and that will never change. We could debate the Rapture, the timing, etc. until the cows come home, but I've yet to personally see anyone swayed from their own stance on that subject. There's no doubt in my view, Paul is talking about Christians will not go through the tribulation, so comfort one another about that. I know and understand all the pre, mid, post, etc. views of the Rapture, and I accept the one that seems the most obvious to me.

I can't think of any other topical study that brings more discussion and disagreement that if and when the Rapture is going to occur. I think everyone can agree 100% with that statement...

And I'll see you all on the way up before the tribulation 

[Steve Conley]

On 2/27/2018 at 5:53 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Steve,

We're all entitled to our hermeneutic understanding. Personally I'm a staunch pre-tribulationalist and that will never change. We could debate the Rapture, the timing, etc. until the cows come home, but I've yet to personally see anyone swayed from their own stance on that subject. There's no doubt in my view, Paul is talking about Christians will not go through the tribulation, so comfort one another about that. I know and understand all the pre, mid, post, etc. views of the Rapture, and I accept the one that seems the most obvious to me.

I can't think of any other topical study that brings more discussion and disagreement that if and when the Rapture is going to occur. I think everyone can agree 100% with that statement...

And I'll see you all on the way up before the tribulation 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

What happens when you realize that you have believed a lie all your life? The answer is very simple. You praise God that you now see the truth. I rejoice today with great enthusiasm for the truth that God has been so gracious to allow me to see from His Holy Word. Today I am fifty years old, and from my childhood I was taught that Jesus could come at any moment and snatch all the Christians away from the Earth. In fact, I lived with that sobering teaching every day, thinking that unexpectedly, like a thief in the night, Jesus would rapture His church. As a very young believer I can remember the question coming to my mind when those I expected to see around me were suddenly missing without explanation: had the rapture come, was I left behind? Today I have a much different understanding based entirely upon the Holy Scriptures.

The eschatological model that I followed, and for many years excelled at teaching, was that which the vast majority of western evangelicals hold. It is called the “Pre-tribulational Rapture” position. For the last hundred years or so the Pre-trib position has gained popularity standing opposed to the more traditional Post-trib position of the timing of the rapture. As may easily be deduced, the Pre-trib position teaches that the catching up of the saints, or rapture as it has been called, takes place before a future tribulation period. The post-trib view teaches that the rapture takes place after a future tribulation period. Even though these two have been the major eschatological models followed by evangelical Christians in more recent history, there is also another position that some have adopted called the Mid-trib rapture position. This position teaches that the rapture happens before the “great tribulation” begins in the middle of “the tribulation period.”

I have found that even though there is some truth that is distinct to each of these models for the timing of the rapture, there is still significant problems with each of them. The comments that I make here are meant to correct these errors, some of which I taught for many years.

Dennis1209, I'm one of those people that you have never seen swayed from their own stance on the subject. If God could challenge me with His Word and change my stubborn heart I'm sure sure He can do the same with others.

A lot depends upon being prepared for great persecution. Any who take the mark to save their lives are eternally damned. The Scripture is quite clear on that matter regardless of how confident one may be that he or she is among the elect.

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this future day the cost will be high to identify with Jesus. But, even in that future time of severe persecution we can have victory in Christ Jesus. We can be overcomers.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

May our gracious Lord by His Spirit guide you into all truth,

All glory be to the Lamb that was slain.

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Steve Conley

[OldCoot]

Just to muddy the waters even more, I came across this video yesterday and it is an interesting take on the Rapture and End time scenario.  It may be no more valid than any other concept on these things, but it is a fascinating take nonetheless.  Worth watching, if nothing more than just seeing another take on the topic......