Jump to content
BlazyJon

The Second Coming of Christ Jesus

Recommended Posts

To be deleted by user

Edited by BlazyJon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Now ask yourself the question, as of right now, where are "those who have fallen asleep", to this day?  If you answered, "with God", well done.'

 

They are with God, but asleep

And when Thessalonians 4:13-18 takes place they will be resurrected and taken up along with those living at the time who will not have time to die

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/22/2017 at 11:23 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Now ask yourself the question, as of right now, where are "those who have fallen asleep", to this day?  If you answered, "with God", well done.'

 

They are with God, but asleep

And when Thessalonians 4:13-18 takes place they will be resurrected and taken up along with those living at the time who will not have time to die

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

That's one way of looking at it.

Here's another: What if instead of saying "with God" we say "in the Everlasting God's perfect memory?" I believe that believers who have fallen asleep have done just that and lie in their graves or urns or wherever their dust or ashes are until God resurrects them! The Resurrection is an ACT OF CREATION! It MUST be for anyone more than three days dead!

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (a living air-breather).
KJV

As I've said to others, YHWH God didn't form the BODY of the man from the dust of the ground; He formed the MAN from the dust of the ground! The MAN became a living air-breather ("soul"), and here's the definition of that word and its root:

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves,  slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The point is we ARE our bodies! This is why the Resurrection - a LITERAL coming back to life from the grave - is so important!

Consider Peter's words about David:

Acts 2:22-36
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
KJV

There's a theological position that says that the saying, "Yeshua` (Jesus) led captivity captive to Heaven after His Resurrection," and they get this from the obscure passage in Ephesians 4: 

Ephesians 4:4-10
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
KJV

But, when did Peter say what he said about David? Wasn't this AFTER the Resurrection of Yeshua` (Jesus)? Did Peter not know? Did Peter make a mistake? Was Peter just talking about David's body? No, none of this makes sense in the context. And, if Peter wasn't right, then his argument for David's prophecy being about Yeshua` falls apart!

Assuming that Paul was intelligent enough to form a decent argument and that he was speaking in the Holy Spirit's power, then he would have known how the quote Psalm 68:18:

Psalm 68:18-23
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation (rescue). Selah.
20 He that is our God is the God of salvation (rescue); and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death.
21 But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
22 The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:
23 That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.
KJV

Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 in a different perspective: You've been seeing it like this:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (from Heaven).
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord (as we blissfully go to Heaven with Him).
KJV

Perhaps, Paul was really teaching this:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (as they join Him from out of the graves in Resurrection).
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (the sky) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord (as He hurries on to Israel to liberate His Land and rescue His people).
KJV

(I believe he was really teaching that!)

Edited by Retrobyter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is nothing in the grave of a dead man

The Lord keeps all of the spirits of dead men until He is ready to deal with them

All will be resurrected in one way or another along with men living at the time  [the pre-tribulation resurrection]

Then those who  become believers during the coming tribulation period will either be resurrected at the end of the period or will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals

When the kingdom is over all of the spirits of the unbelieving dead from the beginning of human creation will be judged and sent to His lake of fire

 

Edited by Daniel 11:36

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

There is nothing in the grave of a dead man

The Lord keeps all of the spirits of dead men until He is ready to deal with them

All will be resurrected in one way or another along with men living at the time  [the pre-tribulation resurrection]

Then those who  become believers during the coming tribulation period will either be resurrected at the end of the period or will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals

When the kingdom is over all of the spirits of the unbelieving dead from the beginning of human creation will be judged and sent to His lake of fire

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

Oops. You haven't read or aren't remembering reading some of the Scriptures.

Genesis 50:4-6
4 And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying,
5 My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again.
6 And Pharaoh said, Go up, and bury thy father, according as he made thee swear.
KJV

1 Samuel 2:6
6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
KJV

2 Kings 22:3-20
3 And it came to pass in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, that the king sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, the son of Meshullam, the scribe, to the house of the LORD, saying,
4 Go up to Hilkiah the high priest, that he may sum the silver which is brought into the house of the LORD, which the keepers of the door have gathered of the people:
5 And let them deliver it into the hand of the doers of the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD: and let them give it to the doers of the work which is in the house of the LORD, to repair the breaches of the house,
6 Unto carpenters, and builders, and masons, and to buy timber and hewn stone to repair the house.
7 Howbeit there was no reckoning made with them of the money that was delivered into their hand, because they dealt faithfully.
8 And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.
9 And Shaphan the scribe came to the king, and brought the king word again, and said, Thy servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of them that do the work, that have the oversight of the house of the LORD.
10 And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.
11 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent (tore) his clothes.
12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying,
13 Go ye, inquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us.
14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.
15 And she said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell the man that sent you to me,
16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.
18 But to the king of Judah which sent you to inquire of the LORD, thus shall ye say to him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, As touching the words which thou hast heard;
19 Because thine heart was tender, and thou hast humbled thyself before the LORD  when thou heardest what I spake against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and hast rent thy clothes, and wept before me; I also have heard thee, saith the LORD.
20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.
KJV

2 Chronicles 34:26-28
26 And as for the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, so shall ye say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel concerning the words which thou hast heard;
27 Because thine heart was tender, and thou didst humble thyself before God, when thou heardest his words against this place, and against the inhabitants thereof, and humbledst thyself before me, and didst rend thy clothes, and weep before me; I have even heard thee also, saith the LORD.
28 Behold, I will gather thee to thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace, neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place, and upon the inhabitants of the same. So they brought the king word again.
KJV

Psalm 49:6-15
6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)
9 That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.
10 For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
11 Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.
12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
KJV

Ezekiel 37:12-14
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
KJV

John 5:24-29
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

The following is part of the "and now is" statement above:

John 11:21-27
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus,
Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
KJV

John 11:32-45
32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him,
Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
34 And said,
Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then said the Jews,
Behold how he loved him!
37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
39 Jesus said,
Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
KJV

John 12:14-17
14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.
17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
KJV

Did you know that the word "spirit" simply means a "wind?" It may IMPLY the "blowing" of a man (or animal) when he pushes his breath out forcefully, but there is no indication that there even IS an "immaterial part" of a man! The Hebrew word is "ruwach":

OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath,  cool, courage, mind,  quarter,  side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest,  vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldee Languages (which was used by Biblesoft, Inc.) can help, but after all, it, too, was written by fallible men. "Only of a rational being?" No, this word was applied to animals as well as human beings:

Ecclesiastes 3:21
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
KJV

Usually, when a man dies naturally, he is generally flat on his back, and his last breath goes upward. When an animal dies, it is either on its belly or on its side. Its breath goes down to the ground.

Genesis 7:18-22
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV

Notice that this does NOT include all the fish or even all of the ocean-bound air-breathers, like whales and dophins. Here, the word "earth" is referring to the "GROUND" - the "LAND!"

The Hebrew of verse 22 is this:

22 Kol asher nishmat ruwach chayiym b’apaayv mikol asher bechaaraaVaah meetuw:

22 Kol = 22 All/Every
asher = whose
nishmat = puff
ruwach = of-wind
chayiym = of-living-things
b’apaayv = in-its-nostrils
mikol = from-all/every
asher = whose
bchaaraaVaah = in-dry-ground
meetuw = died.

So, that included birds, domesticated livestock, wild animals, and all reptiles and insects as well as man as those creatures that had "a puff of breath (wind of living things) in their nostrils!"

Don't let the philosophies of theology dictate what you believe; stick to the Scriptures!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are giving scripture from man's point of view

When a human body is put into the grave [not all are] it will disintegrate into nothing over time

The spirits of all men go back to the Creator at death who will then re institute them according to His will either to eternal life in a new imperishable body or to His lake of fire and eternal death    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/1/2017 at 9:31 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

I think you are giving scripture from man's point of view

When a human body is put into the grave [not all are] it will disintegrate into nothing over time

The spirits of all men go back to the Creator at death who will then re institute them according to His will either to eternal life in a new imperishable body or to His lake of fire and eternal death    

Shalom, Daniel 11:36.

It's Scripture nonetheless. You're right about the disintegration, which means "dis-ordering of the whole into its disjointed parts." God not only creates the parts, (organs, tissues, cells, molecules, atoms, subatomic particles) but also ORGANIZES them into the WHOLE, WORKING body. Most of the acts of Creation involved the ORGANIZATION of the various parts of His Creation into a well-ordered, systematic WHOLE!

The "soul" or the "spirit" doesn't exist as that tiny point of light that you see coming out of the mouths of people in movies like Harry Potter. (I laugh every time I see it in movies!) Nor is it an ethereal, "after-image" of the person, like a whispy, cloud-like, black-and-white, thin-as-air picture of the original person, like that in the movie Van Helsing. That's only true for fiction and movies!

The "soul" is a living, air-breathing BODY that we call a PERSON, because he or she lives and breathes and has a distinct personality. He or she is an INDIVIDUAL. The "spirit of a man" is simply his or her breath! When the last breath leaves the person, that person ceases to be a "soul" - an "air-breather" - and the "spirit" - the "breath" - goes back to God who gave him or her that breath in the first place! But, like air in a popped balloon, it just mixes in with the rest of the air around it! 

BUT, God REMEMBERS US! He KNOWS the complex organization that was once called "---" (you're name goes here, "Daniel 11:36")! And, IN THE RESURRECTION He will RE-create you precisely as He remembers you! And, if you are in the Messiah (and I believe that you are), you will then undergo a metamorphosis changing your weak, pale, mortal, decay-able, air-breathing body into a strong, glowing, immortal, incorruptible, air-BLASTING body in the "twinkling of an eye!"

The unjustified person will undergo the same reconstitution of himself or herself, and it's up to God whether he or she undergoes the metamorphosis, but once reconstituted, he or she will stand before the Messiah sitting upon the Great White Throne to be judged and sentenced. I believe in an eternal Lake of Fire and Sulfur; therefore, I believe they will undergo a similar metamorphosis so that they may suffer for their rejection of an Almighty God's most gracious gift in the Sacrifice of His perfect, eternal Son SPURNED AND REJECTED FOREVER! If they just suddenly went up in smoke, I would think they got off very lightly. "Death is too good for them."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×