Some encouraging Scriptures about the rapture

[Diaste]

On 7/14/2019 at 8:55 AM, OldCoot said:

That would be in error.  While the wrath being foisted on the redeemed is of the evil one, unlike where the seals are broken by Messiah, the wrath that the redeemed are suffering under today is not because the Lord is starting events.  It is solely the discretion of the evil one. The primary focus at this time is the redeemed of the church.  The primary focus of the tribulation period is not, as explained in my last post.

It is because the time is short and that calamities are coming upon the condemned that the outpouring of the wrath of the evil one is piled on those who have come to faith in Messiah.  

In either case, the wrath upon the redeemed is solely the discretion of the evil one.  Again, it is not the focus of the tribulation period that is being brought about by the Lord.  The saints part of that period is just a side note.  And not keeping this perspective of the Tribulation period takes away from what the purpose of that period is all about. And its primarily purpose has nothing to do with saints.

It's just awful, isn't it? At one point you place all the responsibility for calamity on Jesus as though He is in complete control, then you sidestep when it doesn't align with personal dogma.

Are you saying that God is not in control now? Or a hundred years ago? What about when Jesus walked the earth? Our Father was vacationing? 

A side note? Salvation and eternal life of a vast group is a side note? What is more to the point than the saving of souls of as many as possible? 

I think you revel in the death of others. As long as you are insulated you have little compassion even if the unregenerate are cast into eternal torture.

I do hope you gain insight at some point before it becomes critical.

[Diaste]

On 7/14/2019 at 8:31 AM, OldCoot said:

Except those who are saints in the tribulation were not saints at the start of the tribulation period.  Just like the saints of Matthew 27 were not the saints of the church either.

And Paul is very clear that the redeemed associated with the NT church are removed before the man of sin is revealed. Also Isaiah 26 makes it very clear that before the Lord comes out of His place to execute judgement on those who dwell on the earth, that the righteous are hidden away in their chambers, which is a reference to John 14.  Likewise, as has been stated before, Psalms 27 suggests that the righteous are protected in the pavilion of the tabernacle of the Lord during "the" time of trouble, which seems to be the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" referenced by Jeremiah 30.  And Paul wrote that before the "Day of the Lord" would come, the departure would occur and then the man of sin would be revealed, the antichrist/lawless one/the Assyrian/son of perdition.  

The price that is paid by the saints of the tribulation period is a result that they were not saints when the tribulation period started.  The OT saints also were not part of the specific group "the church" that came later.  Likewise, the tribulation saints are not part of the church either. All are redeemed in the same way, by the blood of Messiah, but not all are part of the same group.  The church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation (except the final salutation).   The saints of the OT and the Tribulation period are not promised to reign on the earth along with Messiah with a rod of iron like those redeemed of the church are as per Revelation 2:26-27.  

And getting bogged down in the saints issue of the tribulation period obscures what the tribulation period is all about and designed for. To bring calamity upon those who "dwell on the earth" which in scripture is always a reference to the condemned, and to drive the Hebrew people to the realization that Yeshua is indeed their promised Messiah and to turn to Him, for as Hosea states, He will not return until they acknowledge that offense and turn to Him.  And He affirmed that in Matthew 23.

"He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." - Gal 3

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3

"I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." - 1 Cor 10

"God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect." - Hebrews 11 (Speaking about the OT people of faith in Jesus)

Your understanding and insight is suspect. 

[Spock]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Wrath of God is encompassed in the 7th Seal, which is after the 6th Seal where, v 6:17 is.  Following the 6th Seal, is where the Wrath of God is.  Then what is within the 7th Seal,  All the Trumpets and Bowl judgments.  So the Wrath of God begins somewhere near the end of the Trumpets.  Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the Earth.  The First Woe is the 5th Trumpet, the Second Woe is the 6th Trumpet, and the Third Woe is within the 7th Trumpet which are the Bowl judgments.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Good rebuttal Marv, thanks.

Small,point , Just curious why you don’t consider trumpets 1-4 as being God’s wrath.

[Spock]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Wrath of God is encompassed in the 7th Seal, which is after the 6th Seal where, v 6:17 is.  Following the 6th Seal, is where the Wrath of God is.  Then what is within the 7th Seal,  All the Trumpets and Bowl judgments.  So the Wrath of God begins somewhere near the end of the Trumpets.  Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the Earth.  The First Woe is the 5th Trumpet, the Second Woe is the 6th Trumpet, and the Third Woe is within the 7th Trumpet which are the Bowl judgments.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Good rebuttal Marv, thanks.

Small,point , Just curious why you don’t consider trumpets 1-4 as being God’s wrath. After all, even the earth dwellers said, “hide us from their wrath”.  They recognized God’s wrath was here. 

[Spock]

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Wrath of God is encompassed in the 7th Seal, which is after the 6th Seal where, v 6:17 is.  Following the 6th Seal, is where the Wrath of God is.  Then what is within the 7th Seal,  All the Trumpets and Bowl judgments.  So the Wrath of God begins somewhere near the end of the Trumpets.  Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the Earth.  The First Woe is the 5th Trumpet, the Second Woe is the 6th Trumpet, and the Third Woe is within the 7th Trumpet which are the Bowl judgments.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Good rebuttal Marv, thanks.

Small,point , Just curious why you don’t consider trumpets 1-4 as being God’s wrath. After all, even the earth dwellers said, “hide us from their wrath”.  They recognized God’s wrath was here. 

10 hours ago, Abdicate said:

The word of God is right. Men are wrong.

God, "Declaring the end from the beginning..." Isa 46:10a

 

 

 

Genesis 8 - Outpouring of the Holy Spirit (dove) - Last Days pour out Spirit

 

Genesis 7 - Shaking of the Earth - Earthquakes in divers places

 

Genesis 6 - Signs of the Days of Noah - violence and evil therefore the love of man grows cold

 

Genesis 5 - Rapture of Enoch - Rapture of the church

 

Genesis 4 - Marking of Cain - Marking of God's 144,000 and Mark of the Beast for the rest

 

Genesis 3 - Satan won over man 3:15 - Satan loses over a Man, Rev 20:2

 

Genesis 2 - Perfect Paradise - Rev 22 Perfect Paradise

 

Genesis 1 -

 

·       Time Begins - Time Ends;

 

·       God walked with man - God walks with man;

 

·       Tree of Life - Tree of Life heals the nations;

 

·       Adam and Eve - Jesus and His Bride;

 

·       No sickness or death - No more sickness or death;

 

 

 

First two chapters of the word of God are perfect. Alef; Alpha

 

Last two chapters of the word of God are perfect. Tav; Omega

 

 

 

Genesis - Nimrod one world government; tower of Babel

 

Revelation - Antichrist one world government; mystery Babylon; Babylon is destroyed

 

 

 

Creation - Trumpet Connection

Creation Day 3 - Grass and Trees grow

 

First Trumpet - Third of the trees burnt up and all green grass

 

 

 

Creation Day 4 - Sun and Moon created

 

Fourth Trumpet - Rotation of the earth is sped up by 8 hours (third of the sun, moon, stars, night, day less)

 

 

 

Creation Day 5 - Waters burst with life and birds of the heaven

 

Second Trumpet - Third of the sea creatures die

 

Third Trumpet - Third part of fresh water made bitter - killing animals and creeping things

 

 

 

Creation Day 6 - Man is created and lives, takes dominion over all

 

Fifth Trumpet - Bottomless Pit - Men seek death and cannot find it for five months

 

Sixth Trumpet - Third part of men killed losing to the natural and supernatural forces

 

 

 

Isaiah 46:9-10

 

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:  

 

 

 

Revelation 22:13

 

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.  

 

 

 

John 1:1-5

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.  

 

 

 

Isaiah 57:1-2

 

The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

 

 

 

Revelation 3:10

 

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

 

 

Genesis 19:22-23

 

Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar.

 

 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9

 

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

 

 

 

Hey Abdicate,

Did your post have anything to do with my response and questions to Joe?  I really enjoy reading rebuttals but I’m very confused about this one here. 

[Montana Marv]

49 minutes ago, Spock said:

Good rebuttal Marv, thanks.

Small,point , Just curious why you don’t consider trumpets 1-4 as being God’s wrath.

None of them are described as a Woe.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

52 minutes ago, Spock said:

Good rebuttal Marv, thanks.

Small,point , Just curious why you don’t consider trumpets 1-4 as being God’s wrath. After all, even the earth dwellers said, “hide us from their wrath”.  They recognized God’s wrath was here. 

Those earth dwellers didn't know what God's Wrath really was. Theirs was an observation.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Spock]

54 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

None of them are described as a Woe.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Okay, now I understand where you are coming from.

To you, WOE=Wrath. 

Do you have any basis to support that?  Or are you logically just inferring that? 

[JoeCanada]

21 hours ago, Spock said:

You make a GREAT point Joe....”Saints” means holy or holy ones .....SO YES, it is not limited to just Trib Saints, but I believe it can mean just them,  but absolutely also has to include the Church and Jewish remnant, like the 144,000 and 1/3 Jews who flee to Petra. Anyone HOLY....

Now the question becomes, how do you interpret which one in these Rev passages?  The passage you cited in Rev 19 has to be the Church and not Trib Saints, but th3 passage you cited in Rev 13.......can it mean Church? (What you think) or can it mean Trib believers (Pre Trib people think)? 

Dont you think it is somewhat subjective as to how one interprets?  Pre weathers want it to mean church and pre tribbers want it to mean Trib Saints. Who is right? 

Hi Spock....

How does one differentiate between "Saints"....and so-called "Tribulation Saints"?

Or....."Old Testament Saints"...."New Testament Saints"...... and so-called "Tribulation Saints"?

I don't see scripture differentiating these groups. Do you?

ALL are one in Christ Jesus. 

When the Lord comes for His righteous ones, the graves will open and the dead Saints will rise....then the Saints who are alive will meet them and the Lord in the clouds. I see no other "First Resurrection".

Pre-tribbers believe that the Holy Spirit is the "restrainer" in 2 Thes 2. And when He is removed, then so is the Church. This has mega problems.

If people see a special group called "Tribulation Saints"......then the question is.....How did these so-called saints become saved during the Trib?

The notion that God would send a group of believers through the darkest time this world has ever known without the Comforter is hard for me to grasp. How about you? Besides, how could the folks the pre-tribbers refer to as "tribulation saints" have gotten saved in the first place without the Holy Spirit?

No one can be saved except the Spirit of God convinces them of their lost condition and reveals Christ to them. To say there will be people saved during the tribulation without the Spirit of God flies in the face of Biblical teaching about salvation.

The grace of God is more than a contract to go free from the consequences of sin. It is the presence and strength of God's Spirit abiding in the heart of the believer, giving us the power to become the very sons of God. There is no other way of salvation!

Here is something vital to understand about this issue. The pre-trib doctrine (dispensational theology) teaches that tribulation saints are NOT saved like we are. They prove their faith by their willingness to die for God. They are saved and enter the Kingdom of God through their martyrdom!........Does this not sound like Islam to anyone but me???????

How can "tribulation saints" be saved apart from the indwelling of the Spirit?

Scripture tell me if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them they are not even His.

Who should I believe?.......Who do YOU believe?

The indwelling Spirit of God IS the resurrection power!

No Holy Spirit------------- No Resurrection!

 

[Spock]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Spock....

How does one differentiate between "Saints"....and so-called "Tribulation Saints"?

Or....."Old Testament Saints"...."New Testament Saints"...... and so-called "Tribulation Saints"?

I don't see scripture differentiating these groups. Do you?

ALL are one in Christ Jesus. 

When the Lord comes for His righteous ones, the graves will open and the dead Saints will rise....then the Saints who are alive will meet them and the Lord in the clouds. I see no other "First Resurrection".

Pre-tribbers believe that the Holy Spirit is the "restrainer" in 2 Thes 2. And when He is removed, then so is the Church. This has mega problems.

If people see a special group called "Tribulation Saints"......then the question is.....How did these so-called saints become saved during the Trib?

The notion that God would send a group of believers through the darkest time this world has ever known without the Comforter is hard for me to grasp. How about you? Besides, how could the folks the pre-tribbers refer to as "tribulation saints" have gotten saved in the first place without the Holy Spirit?

No one can be saved except the Spirit of God convinces them of their lost condition and reveals Christ to them. To say there will be people saved during the tribulation without the Spirit of God flies in the face of Biblical teaching about salvation.

The grace of God is more than a contract to go free from the consequences of sin. It is the presence and strength of God's Spirit abiding in the heart of the believer, giving us the power to become the very sons of God. There is no other way of salvation!

Here is something vital to understand about this issue. The pre-trib doctrine (dispensational theology) teaches that tribulation saints are NOT saved like we are. They prove their faith by their willingness to die for God. They are saved and enter the Kingdom of God through their martyrdom!........Does this not sound like Islam to anyone but me???????

How can "tribulation saints" be saved apart from the indwelling of the Spirit?

Scripture tell me if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them they are not even His.

Who should I believe?.......Who do YOU believe?

The indwelling Spirit of God IS the resurrection power!

No Holy Spirit------------- No Resurrection!

 

Hi again Joe, blessings going your way,

i for one definitely do NOT believed the HS is removed from Earth after the rapture, that is quite illogical to think that. And most pre tribbers I know don’t believe that. 

I think most agree, we go back to the OT times when the HS no longer INDWELLS people, but is definitely present doing its thing. And the proof of that to me is Rev 24:14.....”now people are encouraged to ENDURE to the end....”

The age of GRACE through faith where a believer is SEALED is no longer in play. During the GT, you better endure, which primarily means, don’t take the mark of the beast and definitely don’t deny Jesus/God. 

No joe, the HS will most definitely be present and doing His thing after rapture. I agree with you on this....you need the HS for salvation. 

Edit: Taking LAmad advice and changing its to His