Looking for some opinions

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:30 PM, Jaynee said:

Looking for some opinions/ bible info. Is Heaven a place where we will physically be? Or a place we will feel spiritually? 

Also - I'm aware the dead will sleep, until the coming of Jesus. I don't believe we go straight to Heaven. I believe we will all be judged at the same time. Although, the part I'm unsure about is, where will our minds and souls be during this time of "sleep"? And are the saved at peace during this time? 

My Grandmother has recently passed away, she was saved also. I suppose it's just made me wonder about these things a little more and spiritually where will she be at this moment ? If anywhere ? 

Thanks 

 

I believe The New Jerusalem is the Place in Heaven that Jesus talk about going to prepare a place for His followers.. 

John 14: KJV

3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

That is what has lead a lot of people to believe we shall exist forever in heaven.. But they seem to have failed to read the following verses describing what will happen to the New Jerusalem 1000 years after the return of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Revelation 21: KJV

1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {2} And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

So our eternal home New Jerusalem will not be in Heaven.. it will be coming out of heaven and coming down to us on the New earth i believe..

 

 

From reading the Book of Revelation i see that there are people in heaven before the return of Jesus / the end of the tribulation times..

Revelation 6: KJV

9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

So from the above scriptures it seems that those in heaven are there because they where killed for their testamony / belief in Jesus...  So maybe the argument between those who believe that all dead believers are in heaven and those who do not believe anyone will be there untill the final judgement is completed are both correct to a limited extent.. So yes there are people in heaven.. people who died for their faith and there are saved dead people awaiting reasurection at the comming of the LORD Jesus Christ who where not killed for their faith but died a natural death.. 

 

 

The next verses also talk of people in heaven but again they seem to have come out of the great tribulation.. meaning they died because of persecution on earth..

Revelation 7: KJV

9"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {11} And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, {12} Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. {13} And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

No matter where the deceased saved are, i cannot see how God would allow any of them to be in distress.. The LORD promised them His peace and that His peace would be with them always.. Peace meaning peace in ones spirit.. Of course we live in a world with little peace but with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit we can be at peace even in a world of great distress..

John 14: KJV

26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. {27} Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

 

 

 

 

[Jaynee]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Jaynee,

The thousand years comes from the book of Revelation, and John points to the starting point as to when it begins.

 

Revelation 20  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

 

Now this takes place shortly after the Second Coming, and is the period known as the Millennial kingdom.

 

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

 

The enemy is released after this period of time, and then we have the Gog-Magog war which is the conclusion of hostilities.  After that is when we are told the New Jerusalem descends to the earth.

 

Revelation 21  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."

 

Hope that answers your question.

God bless

Thank you very much for the reply! You explained that in a way my burling mind could understand lol. Thank you! :-) 

[TickledPinkinChristWoot!]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:30 AM, Jaynee said:

Looking for some opinions/ bible info. Is Heaven a place where we will physically be? Or a place we will feel spiritually? 

Also - I'm aware the dead will sleep, until the coming of Jesus. I don't believe we go straight to Heaven. I believe we will all be judged at the same time. Although, the part I'm unsure about is, where will our minds and souls be during this time of "sleep"? And are the saved at peace during this time? 

My Grandmother has recently passed away, she was saved also. I suppose it's just made me wonder about these things a little more and spiritually where will she be at this moment ? If anywhere ? 

Thanks 

First, my deepest sympathies for your heartbreak at losing your grandma. It is comforting to know they are with Jesus now and yet it can still hurt to know they're not in our life anymore. 

What you're talking about when being aware of , the dead will sleep, is sometimes referred to as soul sleep. This is also a teaching of the Seventh Day Adventists. 

However, this may help you .  Ecclesiastes 12:7 ⁷and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

[inchrist]

9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Well, not exactly, but I think maybe where your understanding parts ways with mine is found here.

 

II Corinthians 5  For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 

 

Now, if I understand your position correctly, what you argue is that being out of our current body makes us naked.  But that is not what the passage states, look closely at verses 2 and 3.

 

4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

 

 

Wingnut; off topic comment - but i want to thank you for the manner in your conversation. 

On topic comment

We need to look at the entire teaching of Paul

2 Corinthians 4:11-18

2 Corinthians 5:2–4 

And then refer to 1 Corinthians 15

We actually see Paul speaks about the resurrection and not an immortal soul. This conclusion is based on context and cross reference.

When we start with 2 Corinthians 4:11 - 18

Paul makes a statement on two notes

1) We look beyond to things we know will be, that which is eternal 

2) That we, like Christ will be resurrected, crossed referenced with 1 Thessalonians 4:14 

Then Paul carries this thought over to 2 Corinthians 5:2–4 

1) Paul desires to put on this 'house' to be clothed with this immortality; this is crossed referenced with  1 Corinthians 15:51 in line with 1 Thessalonians 4:14

Notice in 1 Cor 5:4

so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Now notice 1 Cor 15;54

So when this mortal puts on immortality and this corruption puts on inocorruption, then shall be brought to pass the saying, 'death is swallowed up in victory!

It's all the same teaching, and the teaching is resurrection.

Quote

 Getting back to the passage from Thessalonians, God will bring with Him those who are asleep.  He is coming from heaven.  Paul doesn't say God will gather to Him those who are asleep, he says God will bring with Him.

This I found interesting; if we examine the scripture 

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

The word bring isn't even in the original NT Greek text. It was added in. I can just as well add the word raise . Which is far more fitting and inline with Paul's teachings

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will raise  with Jesus (secomd coming)those who have fallen asleep in him.

 

Further complications with  your interpretation 

John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Christ gives the damning evidence of any idea of immortal soul.

Christ will only receive you at the resurrection

Christ wouldn't need to receive you unto himself when you are already received with immortal souls, you would be with him already. The resurrection thus becomes simply an after thought.

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by inchrist

[wingnut-]

21 minutes ago, inchrist said:

We need to look at the entire teaching of Paul

2 Corinthians 4:11-18

2 Corinthians 5:2–4 

And then refer to 1 Corinthians 15

We actually see Paul speaks about the resurrection and not an immortal soul. This conclusion is based on context and cross reference.

When we start with 2 Corinthians 4:11 - 18

Paul makes a statement on two notes

1) We look beyond to things we know will be, that which is eternal 

 

Well, I agree with you on a lot of what you are saying, but to me there are important aspects of this to point to.  Paul does indeed speak of resurrection, and while he doesn't specifically state anything about an immortal soul, it is confirmed by scripture on many occasions indirectly from my viewpoint.

On your first point, exactly when do you believe you are saved?  At what point are you granted eternal life?  Is it when you are born again, or when you receive a new covering?  And what exactly is it that your current body and future body are covering?

To me, this is one of the indirect teachings that point to what I believe to be true.  At no point that I am aware of, are we told that we will be granted eternal life, but that there is going to be a break in our existence when our bodies give out.  The very concept defies what is taught regarding being granted eternal life.  How can it be eternal if there is a time we cease to exist?  How can the Holy Spirit become part of you and then you become nothing, even temporarily?

 

31 minutes ago, inchrist said:

2) That we, like Christ will be resurrected, crossed referenced with 1 Thessalonians 4:14

 

On your second point, mostly what I said above would be repeated, but I do have a few question in regards to this.  If we are to be resurrected like Christ (which I definitely agree with you on), doesn't that indicate we will still exist?  Do you believe Jesus ceased to exist for a period of time, or did He remain eternal?

 

God bless

[Wayne222]

18 hours ago, inchrist said:

Can you  also please provide facts since Christ came to fulfil the law

 

Matthew 5:17  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

 

How did Christ fulfil the law of necromamcy with Moses and Elijah?

Look is not circumcision gone yet it was a law to Israel when a male child was born. Why was offerings done away with then. Yet Christ said think not that I have come to abolish the law. To me you confuse this statement that Christ said. He brought to pass all the prophecy in the law and in the bible that spoke of what the Christ would do. 

[Wayne222]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Well, I agree with you on a lot of what you are saying, but to me there are important aspects of this to point to.  Paul does indeed speak of resurrection, and while he doesn't specifically state anything about an immortal soul, it is confirmed by scripture on many occasions indirectly from my viewpoint.

On your first point, exactly when do you believe you are saved?  At what point are you granted eternal life?  Is it when you are born again, or when you receive a new covering?  And what exactly is it that your current body and future body are covering?

To me, this is one of the indirect teachings that point to what I believe to be true.  At no point that I am aware of, are we told that we will be granted eternal life, but that there is going to be a break in our existence when our bodies give out.  The very concept defies what is taught regarding being granted eternal life.  How can it be eternal if there is a time we cease to exist?  How can the Holy Spirit become part of you and then you become nothing, even temporarily?

 

 

On your second point, mostly what I said above would be repeated, but I do have a few question in regards to this.  If we are to be resurrected like Christ (which I definitely agree with you on), doesn't that indicate we will still exist?  Do you believe Jesus ceased to exist for a period of time, or did He remain eternal?

 

God bless

Paul did say to die is gain. He wanted to be with christ which is far better. If he had to wait till the ressurection for that. Then to die is gain could not be true.

[simplejeff]

Just now, Wayne222 said:

Paul did say to die is gain. He wanted to be with christ which is far better. If he had to wait till the ressurection for that. Then to die is gain could not be true.

Why wouldn't it be true ?    Moses and Abraham and Joshua died,  not having received the promise,   but they had faith,

and to them,  just as to Paul and the Apostles,   when they 'sleep' or die,   it will be just like an instant and they will awaken in the Resurrection of Life in Jesus,  even though thousands of years may in the meantime pass.

The WORD of YHWH is not constrained by time as men are,  and not corrupted either the way men are, and man's religion and man's religiious heresies and concepts and practices ...

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 minute ago, Wayne222 said:

Paul did say to die is gain. He wanted to be with christ which is far better. If he had to wait till the ressurection for that. Then to die is gain could not be true.

TO die is gain and those who sleep IN CHRIST , shall be caught up with Him and so will those who are still alive at his coming.

SO sorrow not wayne as do others.     Read what paul said.  

Ps,   wayne what I tell you next I bet you agree with it .      Jesus never says depart from me who you could not grasp all of revelation or all mysteries

BUT know this ,    If we built our house on sand wont none see a GOOD RESSURECTION only the resurrection of the damned.

SO HOW ones builds that house is DIRE IMPORTANT , would we not all agree. 

SO lets see HOW we should build and how we should not build.   HE WHO HEARS these sayings of mine ...............................and does them NOT...................twists or omits them

BUILT THAT HOUSE ON SAND , but he who HEARS and DOES , built that house ON JESUS .      so lets all go read all JESUS said and twist nothing .  

Be blessed wayne.   hopes this encourages others too.

[Wayne222]

3 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

TO die is gain and those who sleep IN CHRIST , shall be caught up with Him and so will those who are still alive at his coming.

SO sorrow not wayne as do others.     Read what paul said.  

Ps,   wayne what I tell you next I bet you agree with it .      Jesus never says depart from me who you could not grasp all of revelation or all mysteries

BUT know this ,    If we built our house on sand wont none see a GOOD RESSURECTION only the resurrection of the damned.

SO HOW ones builds that house is DIRE IMPORTANT , would we not all agree. 

SO lets see HOW we should build and how we should not build.   HE WHO HEARS these sayings of mine ...............................and does them NOT...................twists or omits them

BUILT THAT HOUSE ON SAND , but he who HEARS and DOES , built that house ON JESUS .      so lets all go read all JESUS said and twist nothing .  

Be blessed wayne.   hopes this encourages others too.

To build your house on the rock you need to be saved. Which is by faith in Christ. No one could walk in the spirit unless they are regenerated by the holy spirit. Then you can add to your faith goodness knowledge godliness brotherly kindness and love. Growing in the faith and knowledge of Jesus.