WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY

[OneLight]

4 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

It would help to first define "the times of the Gentiles" so that we're on the same page.  My understanding of that term is that it is a reference to the time that the gospel was being preached to all the nations (Gentiles).  It was the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that in him, all the nations would be blessed.  I base that on Galatians 3.

• The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” Galatians 3:8
• In order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.  Galatians 3:14

Jesus gives us the marker that lets us know that the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled in Luke 21:

• And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  Luke 21:24

As far as to when the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, we don't know for sure.  But we do know that they have been fulfilled because Jerusalem is again under Israeli control. 

I see "the fullness of the Gentiles" as something yet future.  The difference between the two terms is the same as the difference between sowing and reaping.  The time between them is the time when the crop is growing and maturing.

• But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.  Mark 4:29

That's what I see as the fullness of the Gentiles coming in.  It happens when Jesus returns on the day of the Lord.

I need to say that Jerusalem is not under Israel's control.  If it were, the Dome of the Rock would not be controlled by Islam and the Third Temple would be standing.  Israelis are still fighting this fight.  So in hindsight, Jerusalem is still being trampled by Gentiles and will continue to be trampled by Gentiles until Christ returns, in my opinion.

[Last Daze]

41 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I need to say that Jerusalem is not under Israel's control.  If it were, the Dome of the Rock would not be controlled by Islam and the Third Temple would be standing.  Israelis are still fighting this fight.  So in hindsight, Jerusalem is still being trampled by Gentiles and will continue to be trampled by Gentiles until Christ returns, in my opinion.

So, you think that Jerusalem is being trampled by the Gentiles today?

[OneLight]

3 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

So, you think that Jerusalem is being trampled by the Gentiles today?

Not like AD 70, but still not fully in Israelis control. 

[Last Daze]

1 minute ago, OneLight said:

Not like AD 70, but still not fully in Israelis control. 

I'll admit that technically, "under Israeli control" was probably not the best phrase to use. 

The description Jesus used was "Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Jerusalem today is not being trampled under foot by the Gentiles.

[OneLight]

13 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'll admit that technically, "under Israeli control" was probably not the best phrase to use. 

The description Jesus used was "Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Jerusalem today is not being trampled under foot by the Gentiles.

That would be how you personally see it.  I see it differently.  As long as there is one Gentile trampling, it is still being trampled.  That would mean, from my point of view, that the times of the Gentiles has not yet been fulfilled, and will continue until Jesus returns. 

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

As far as to when the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, we don't know for sure.  But we do know that they have been fulfilled because Jerusalem is again under Israeli control not being trampled under foot by the Gentiles.

 

Hey brother,

I agree with you that they are different in that the times of the Gentiles is the time in which the gospel is still being preached to the Gentiles.  The fullness is when the number of Gentile believers is arrived at in my opinion.  While I agree that Jerusalem has been trampled under foot before, it appears to me based on scripture that it will be again as well.  Can you explain how this scripture factors into your understanding?

 

Revelation 11  Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 

[Last Daze]

5 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Hey brother,

I agree with you that they are different in that the times of the Gentiles is the time in which the gospel is still being preached to the Gentiles.  The fullness is when the number of Gentile believers is arrived at in my opinion.  While I agree that Jerusalem has been trampled under foot before, it appears to me based on scripture that it will be again as well.  Can you explain how this scripture factors into your understanding?

 

Revelation 11  Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 

I understand that passage primarily in a spiritual context because people are being measured and believers are the temple of God.  Given the context of Rev 11, I think the measuring is the testing of faith that occurs during the 42 months that the false prophet is given to act.  I think that trampling "the holy city" is a dual reference to both the persecution of Jews in Jerusalem and the persecution of believers around the world by the nations.  I base that on Revelation 12:13-17 where the dragon attacks the woman and then her offspring.

I'm not aware of any passages that would preclude Jerusalem from being trampled by the nations again.  The mention of the 42 months to me indicates a new time frame, not a continuation of an existing condition.

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I understand that passage primarily in a spiritual context because people are being measured and believers are the temple of God.  Given the context of Rev 11, I think the measuring is the testing of faith that occurs during the 42 months that the false prophet is given to act.  I think that trampling "the holy city" is a dual reference to both the persecution of Jews in Jerusalem and the persecution of believers around the world by the nations.  I base that on Revelation 12:13-17 where the dragon attacks the woman and then her offspring.

I'm not aware of any passages that would preclude Jerusalem from being trampled by the nations again.  The mention of the 42 months to me indicates a new time frame, not a continuation of an existing condition.

 

Thanks for clarifying for me, going to take some time thinking on this, God bless you.

[iamlamad]

On 2/24/2018 at 3:08 AM, wingnut- said:

Colorful attack, but naturally you fail to provide scripture to support your claims.  Typical.  If you want to insist something is true, shouldn't it be found in scripture, the source of all truth?

True, I do not believe in something that scripture does not support.

And yet somehow the sudden destruction doesn't happen here according to your theory, care to explain that?  Are we redefining English words as well now?

Please share this scripture with us, would love to see this.

Any scripture that states this claim?

If there is any truth to this, then it shouldn't be hard to point us to the scripture that says so, right?

Of course, the entire pre-trib teaching is based on additions and inferences, not scripture, as evidenced by the lack thereof in your post.

Really?  Where do you get this from in scripture?  I can disprove this claim with scripture as well.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Ephesians 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Does the dog wag the tail or the tail wag the dog?

Exactly: All authority was given to Jesus and then He said GO therefore. HOW are we to go? Of course WITH HIS authority.  WITH His power.  Did you never read in Ephesians how Jesus was raised to sit in heavenly places SO FAR above all other powers and authority - and then He raised the church up with Him? Did you never read how we are ONE In Him?  Did you not read in Luke 9:1: where He gave the church power and authority to cast out devils and heal - Just like He did? Did you not read in Mark 16 where the signs (the very same signs of casting out devils and healing) are suppose to follow the church? 

No "attack." Just the truth of scripture. The truth is, there IS scripture, but you seem to read it differently that millions of others that know we are in the church age. Did you just fail to read "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John?" The truth is, a different dispensation came when John began to preach. The Old Covenant was set aside for Emmanuel.  And after the days if Emmanuel, then the church began. It was the first time in history that a human being could become "born again" or born with a NEW Father after their birth by water. Indeed, it was a new age. The church has been calling it the age of grace or the church age for centuries. And you have a new idea? The truth is, "the body of Christ" never existed until after Jesus rose from the dead. 

There is ample proof of a pretrib rapture. But again, while millions of others see it, apparently you cannot.  I wonder, do you believe in a future 70th week of Daniel? Or do you read Daniel 9:27 differently that millions of other believers?  If  you believe in a future 70th week, can you find the start of that week in the book of Daniel? 

Did you not read over the 5th seal and not understand it is about CHURCH AGE martyrs? No, of course not, because you don't believe in a church age. Well, to help you out, James and Stephen were surely in the group. They had no idea how long it would be before God would bring judgment, so they asked. And they were told they must wait for the full number or the final martyr killed as they were killed. And what does that mean? Each was killed in a different manner. It means killed as church age martyrs. God knows the full number. Judgment will not come until all church age martyrs are killed. When will that be? Of course at the end of the church age. But, just to assist you, it will be a moment before the 6th seal begins "the day of His wrath" or the Day of the Lord. 

It's all there in scripture - but it seems you read these verses differently that most of the church. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

It is possible, before we arrive at the 70th week of Daniel, that Israel will possess the temple mount.  There will be a new "brick and mortar" temple built. And it is that new temple that John was (or will be?) sent to measure. And there will be Jews IN that temple worshiping.  

What does John mean about the city being trampled?  But this time, the man of sin is about to enter the temple and  declare he is god. But before this time, what has he been doing? Daniel tells us there are ten kings and the man of sin (who will turn Beast) will take down 3 of them. By this time (Rev. 11:1) the first 6 trumpets will have sounded, and the first half of the week with only days left. John is telling us that the man of sin will enter Jerusalem with his Gentile armies just before the midpoint. It will be these Gentile armies that will trample the city. I personally believe they will be Muslim armies. 

Because the man of sin enters Jerusalem, God sends the Two witnesses. They arrive then (11:3) because the man of sin arrived.  In 3 1/2 more days, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is god. And that event will stop the daily sacrifices and will divide the week into two equal halves of 1260 days each.