Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Sister

WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY

Recommended Posts

51 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, your faith in the work of Thomas Ice, will only lead to ever more false teaching on your part. This a shameful attempt on your part to concoct an explicit statement of a pre-trib rapture where none exists. It is my experience having followed the teaching of Thomas Ice for some time that he is not interested in truth, he appears to only be interested in that which props up the false teaching (pre-tribulationism) that he is so heavily invested in. Even the late Dr. Walvoord spoke against the foolishness of trying to make apostasia mean the rapture.

Your lack of linguistic understanding leaves you vulnerable to all the "supposed evidence" that Ice heaps up. He has you believing that the verb cognates of the noun apostasia can be used to define its meaning. Thomas Ice should know better, but he is happy to give people like you what you want to hear. It just builds his following.

Concerning your question to me, there is nothing wrong with the word departure. In fact all the uses of the noun apostasia in Koine Greek refer to either a religious or political departure. It isn't until the fifth century, long after the Koine period, that there is record of even one use of departure (apostasia) in the physical/spatial sense.

Paul Feinberg wrote, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” He is a pre-tribulationist, but he's doing real research unlike what Thomas Ice is feeding you. Ice heaps up vast amounts of meaningless tripe in an attempt to weary those searching for truth.

You would do well to expand you research of the subject at hand.

Hallelujah

 

By what authority do you assume to judge me or anyone else pertaining to Biblical eschatology.  Where did you obtain qualifications to teach it?  Your opinionated egotistical arrogance towards me with the hypocritical salutations and blessings deserve no response from me at all.  Dr. Ice came along many years after I had done the same kind of work He is doing now.  The first three posts of the four post link below are all my composition, and an example of much more.  If it would make any difference at all to you, I could quote any of those from the listings of esteemed men of God, from most every Christian teachings instead of Dr. Ice.  

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html
 

The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

 

Quasar92

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

The following is a message to wingnut from Locknut:  To reveal how far off you are.

 

Let me know when you are going to address anything I post.

 

6 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology? 

 

On this forum, we are not debating the person, but the topic.  In this case, the topic is the falling away, or departing as you prefer.

 

6 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

The rapture of the Church and the second coming of Jesus WITH His Church, are TWO SEPARATE events.

 

Let me reveal how far off you are from what Paul said, again.  Take verse 1 apart one piece at a time, applying proper context.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning 

 

Concerning what?

 

the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

 

Two things, that is what Paul says, concerning two things.  The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,  AND our being gathered together to Him.  The and is an important part of the sentence, so here is a breakdown on what it means.

 

and >conjunction 1 used to connect words, clauses, or sentences. 2 used to connect two identical words to emphasize progressive change or great duration: getting better and better. 3 (connecting two numbers) plus. 4 informal (after a verb) to: try and do it. 

 

See there, Paul connects the two things together, His coming, and our being gathered.

 

II Thessalonians 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

 

Now Paul tells us that His coming and our gathering is the day of the Lord in the second verse.

 

II Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

In verse 3 Paul tells us that the day of the Lord will not come, until the departing (as you like to call it) comes first.  This makes them two separate things you see, because you can't have a gathering before the gathering.  First you have a rebellion, then His coming and our gathering comes after that.  This is how it works in any language.

 

6 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Review the second post of the four post thread in the following link proven by Scriptural fact that you call "nonsensical:"

 

This thread is about the falling away, specifically, not rapture positions.  What is nonsensical, is trying to change the departing (as you prefer) into the rapture, when the rapture takes place afterward according to Paul.  Once you accept what Paul is saying here, it dismantles the rest of the position anyway.

God bless

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Let me know when you are going to address anything I post.

 

 

On this forum, we are not debating the person, but the topic.  In this case, the topic is the falling away, or departing as you prefer.

 

 

Let me reveal how far off you are from what Paul said, again.  Take verse 1 apart one piece at a time, applying proper context.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning 

 

Concerning what?

 

the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

 

Two things, that is what Paul says, concerning two things.  The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,  AND our being gathered together to Him.  The and is an important part of the sentence, so here is a breakdown on what it means.

 

and >conjunction 1 used to connect words, clauses, or sentences. 2 used to connect two identical words to emphasize progressive change or great duration: getting better and better. 3 (connecting two numbers) plus. 4 informal (after a verb) to: try and do it. 

 

See there, Paul connects the two things together, His coming, and our being gathered.

 

II Thessalonians 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

 

Now Paul tells us that His coming and our gathering is the day of the Lord in the second verse.

 

II Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

In verse 3 Paul tells us that the day of the Lord will not come, until the departing (as you like to call it) comes first.  This makes them two separate things you see, because you can't have a gathering before the gathering.  First you have a rebellion, then His coming and our gathering comes after that.  This is how it works in any language.

 

 

This thread is about the falling away, specifically, not rapture positions.  What is nonsensical, is trying to change the departing (as you prefer) into the rapture, when the rapture takes place afterward according to Paul.  Once you accept what Paul is saying here, it dismantles the rest of the position anyway.

God bless

\FYI, the term "falling away," is one of the alterations of 2 Thess;2:3, which is specifically about the DEPARTURE/RAPTURE of the Church.  Review the following translation history of this schism:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

 

Quasar93

Edited by Quasar93

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to put my 2 cents worth in.....IMHO the church is far from being at the place of being taken away...based on 

Ephesians 5:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

This church does not yet exist...as far as what I have seen....but God is separating the wheat from the tares and He is rising up a body of believers who will walk upright according to His Word and who will walk in the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit, who are united in one mind and one accord in unity faith as they were on the day of Pentecost.....the remnant who did not waiver in their faith, who walked in the fruits of the spirit, who have the mind of Christ and obey the commandment of LOVE. 

This is the church that is the Bride of Christ.....the church I pray I will be worthy of being a part of.

 

And as I stated this is IMHO...

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many concepts about the falling away. As posted, false teaching about not facing the antichrist well cause many  to tremble.  When the man of sin declares all to take his mark the goats will be separated from the sheep. The church will be divided and many will turn against one another. This the way I see it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/22/2018 at 12:56 AM, Quasar93 said:

FYI, the term "falling away," is one of the alterations of 2 Thess;2:3, which is specifically about the DEPARTURE/RAPTURE of the Church.

 

The more accurate translation is rebellion, it would be the most literal translation of the Greek.  It really doesn't matter whether one calls it rebellion, falling away, or departing.  What it is not referencing is the rapture, which Paul makes clear as I have already pointed out twice now.

 

On 4/21/2018 at 8:20 PM, wingnut- said:

Take verse 1 apart one piece at a time, applying proper context.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning 

 

Concerning what?

 

the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

 

Two things, that is what Paul says, concerning two things.  The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,  AND our being gathered together to Him.  The and is an important part of the sentence, so here is a breakdown on what it means.

 

and >conjunction 1 used to connect words, clauses, or sentences. 2 used to connect two identical words to emphasize progressive change or great duration: getting better and better. 3 (connecting two numbers) plus. 4 informal (after a verb) to: try and do it. 

 

See there, Paul connects the two things together, His coming, and our being gathered.

 

II Thessalonians 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

 

Now Paul tells us that His coming and our gathering is the day of the Lord in the second verse.

 

II Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

In verse 3 Paul tells us that the day of the Lord will not come, until the departing (as you like to call it) comes first.  This makes them two separate things you see, because you can't have a gathering before the gathering.  First you have a rebellion, then His coming and our gathering comes after that.  This is how it works in any language.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 11:51 AM, wingnut- said:

 

The more accurate translation is rebellion, it would be the most literal translation of the Greek.  It really doesn't matter whether one calls it rebellion, falling away, or departing.  What it is not referencing is the rapture, which Paul makes clear as I have already pointed out twice now.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...