Jump to content
IGNORED

Michael's relationship to the middle of the week


Steve Conley

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,536
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,426
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

On 2/18/2018 at 11:15 PM, Steve Conley said:

Understanding the Activity of Michael the Archangel in the Middle of the Seventieth Week


In this brief post, I would like to make a strong case for Michael the archangel being the restrainer that Paul says is withholding the revelation of the man of sin until it is God's determined time.

Michael's suitability to be the restrainer

The Holy Scriptures present Michael as the mightiest of the Heavenly Host. He is seen opposing Satan on a handful of occasions in the Scriptures. Jude tells us that Michael contended with the Devil over the body of Moses, whom he rebuked in the name of the Lord. As recorded in Daniel 10, it is Michael that dealt with the prince of Persia when he had detained Gabriel on his way with a message for Daniel. In the future Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with Satan and his angels, after which he will cast Satan to the earth. It is he who appears to have been tasked with the responsibility to hold back the revelation of the man of sin until it is the right time.

Michael's unique relationship to the middle of the seventieth week

In the future eschatological period known as Daniel's seventieth week, the archangel Michael will play a significant role. We find him in three passages that present events that take place in the middle of the week.

1) Michael stands up and an unparalleled time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1)

Dan 11:45  And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The context of the end of Daniel chapter 11 is the activities of the Beast in the end of the age. In chapter 11 we learn characteristics about him and see some of his military activities. The chapter ends with him placing the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain. This location appears to be Mt Zion in Jerusalem. The significance of this is that it is at that time (Dan 12:1) that Michael makes a change in his activity which results in an unparalleled time of trouble (Dan 12:1). This time of trouble is consistent with the great tribulation Jesus spoke of. We also see that there is a unique period length that is mentioned in relation to what is taking place in the beginning of chapter 12. The length that is given is "a time, times, and an half" or 3 1/2 years. Seven times in the Scriptures we find this same length spoken of in various forms: 1260 days, 42 months, and 3 1/2 years. It appears each time that they are associated with the second half of the seventieth week. The obvious conclusion is that the change in activity by Michael takes place in the middle of the week.

2) War in heaven, Satan cast to the earth (Rev 12:7-14)

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Michael and his angels will fight a war in heaven with the dragon (Satan) and his angels, after which Satan is cast to the earth having great wrath. Once upon the earth Satan goes after a remnant of Israel (represented by the woman) but she is hid and fed by God in the wilderness for 1260 days (Rev 12:6). The 1260 days indicate that the war in heaven took place in the middle of the week. Again, we see that Michael is very prominent in the middle of the week.

3) The abomination of desolation starts the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27)

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The temple is defiled in the middle of the week which initiates the great tribulation. This is consistent with the Dan 12 passage but Michael is not mentioned by name or referred to.

4) The revelation of the man of sin (2Thess 2:3-10)

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

In Paul's instruction to the Thessalonians, he tells them that before the day of Christ can come there must be a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. He also mentions that there is one who is withholding the revelation of the man of sin and that they, the Thessalonians,  knew who it was. This revelation would involve the man of sin sitting in the temple and shewing himself to be God. Paul also says that this Antichrist shall receive power from Satan. 

We already know from the previous passages we looked at that the abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week and it begins the great tribulation. Here we see further details concerning the defiling of the temple and learn of one hindering the work of the mystery of iniquity. It is said that this hindering will continue "until he be taken out of the way." It is interesting to note that the last Greek word in verse seven is "mesos" which means middle even though it is translated "the way". It is as if Paul is saying that the restrainer will continue to hinder until the middle. I wonder what middle he was referring to. Could it be the middle of the week? Could this restrainer be Michael who is associated with the middle of the week?

I believe Michael is the restrainer of 2Thes 2.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

The End of the Age Diagram January 2018 jpeg.jpg

Shalom, Steve Conley, and welcome to the discussions.

Now that you've had sufficient time to present your case and get some positive feedback, I'll just say that there are OTHER WAYS to see this whole thing. First, you need to re-read Daniel. You have such a hodge-podge of ideas thrown together, that it makes no sense in the original text of Daniel, especially in Hebrew.

Second, Matthew 24 is Yeshua`s Olivet Discourse given to us in three points of view, not just the one. One must also check this against Mark 13 and Luke 21. Furthermore, those three passages should first be harmonized for a proper understanding of what the three disciples were saying. To harmonize these three passages, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, harmonize them in the GREEK BEFORE translating them into English. They fit together better that way anyway.

Having said that, I don't deny that "The abomination of desolation starts the great tribulation," but did you know that Yeshua` - speaking directly to His students at the time - is referring to the FIRST CENTURY A.D? I also don't deny that it is immediately AFTER the tribulation that the signs in the sun, moon, and stars appear. That means that we're not talking about a mere 7 years being this "great tribulation!" It's more like 2,000 YEARS of tribulation! And, this time period does indeed correspond to the "Time of Jacob's Troubles." That's a perfect way to describe all that's been happening to Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) children for the past 2,000 years! The persecutions, the inquisitions, the Crusades, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, the terrorism, and being chased from city to city and country to country all across Europe and Asia down through the years are ALL part of this "Time of Jacob's Troubles!" What else would you call it?

Now, I'm not saying they didn't deserve it, rejecting God's Messiah to be King, but they had no idea at the time what being left "Desolate" would entail! (Matthew 23:38.)

I'll also say at the outset that Daniel 9:24-27 is FREQUENTLY applied to the wrong person. Both the Hebrew and the English translation support the "he" in verse 27 to be the MESSIAH, not the "prince that shall come." The first half of the seventieth Seven, then, was fulfilled in the "Ministry" of the Messiah, when Yeshua` (Jesus) offered a legitimate offer of the Kingdom to Israel as David's Heir and Successor. The second half of that Seven won't be fulfilled until the Messiah returns and once again offers that SAME KINGDOM to Israel again! This time, however, He'll be in RESCUE MODE, and will truly SAVE His people from their enemies at the time. He'll put a stop to the genocide! (Zechariah 12-14.)

So, to recap Daniel 9:27, Gavri'el ("Gabriel") said,

Quote

 

Daniel 9:27a (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: ...

 

This is talking about the DAVIDIC Covenant, which the Messiah came to fulfill:

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains. 3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

1 Chronicles 17:1-15 (KJV)

1 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet, Lo, I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains. 2 Then Nathan said unto David, Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee.

3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying, 4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in: 5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another. 6 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars? 7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel: 8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth. 9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, 10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

This was confirmed by the same Gavri'el in Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

And, at His baptism:

Matthew 3:13-17 (KJV)

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 1:9-11 (KJV)

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Luke 3:21-22 (KJV)

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

John 1:29-34 (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
 

Quote

 

Daniel 9:27b (KJV)

...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ...

 

The sacrifice and the gift ("oblation") were finished, according to the author of Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:1-18 (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Quote

 

Daniel 9:27c (KJV)

...and for the overspreading of abominations...

 

These are to be found in the majority of Matthew 23:

Matthew 23:1-37 (KJV)

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute themfrom city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

THESE are their abominations that led to ...
 

Quote

 

Daniel 9:27d (KJV)

...he shall make it desolate,...

 

Matthew 23:38 (KJV)

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
 

Quote

 

Daniel 9:27e (KJV)

...even until the consummation (the end; the conclusion),...

 

Yeshua` gave us this timeline:

Matthew 23:39 (KJV)

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till (until) ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This is a quotation from Psalm 118:26, which in context says,

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25Save now, (Hebrew: howshi`aah naa' transliterated into Greek as "hosanna") I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD (Hebrew: Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH): we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The phrase "baruwkh haba'" is used today, in its plural form, "baruwkhiym haba'iym," at all the airports and seaports in Israel as a "welcome."

sign_welcome1.jpg

Therefore, they weren't going to see Him again until they could WELCOME HIM BACK as God's Messiah! "In the name of (or on the authority of) YHWH!"

Quote

 

Daniel 9:27f (KJV)

...and that determined (decided) shall be poured upon the desolate (the ones pronounced "desolate").

 

This is where all the evil upon the children of Israel comes into play: the persecutions, the inquisitions, the Crusades, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, the terrorism, etc., both old and recent.

Hope this helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  5
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  401
  • Content Per Day:  0.18
  • Reputation:   226
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  02/19/2018
  • Status:  Offline

On 2/25/2018 at 3:02 AM, Retrobyter said:

Therefore, they weren't going to see Him again until they could WELCOME HIM BACK as God's Messiah! "In the name of (or on the authority of) YHWH!"

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Retrobyter, I can't disagree with you more. The next messianic figure to be welcomed onto the world stage is not the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, it is the Beast, the man of sin. The Jew's aren't welcoming Christ to return. There is less than 2% of the population of Israel that claim to be Christians, 10%-12% are followers of Orthodox Judaism, which denounces Christ, and the remaining population is predominately secularists, muslims, etc..

The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed over 30 years after the time frame you present for the seventieth week. Yet it is mentioned after the sixty ninth week.

Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The fact is that Jesus references the great tribulation to the middle of the last week in the seventy weeks prophecy. The great tribulation is said to begin when the temple is defiled, which He called the abomination of desolation. This same abomination is said to be future by Paul in 2Thes 2 which he wrote more than 15 years after Jesus ascended into heaven and sat down at the right hand of the Father.

Paul's epistles were all written after the time you say the seventieth week ended. Paul teaches the same thing that Jesus did: that there would come a great departure from the Christian Faith (4 times in Matt 24 He warns of the deception of that time. A combination of the deception and severe persecution will bring about the notable apostasy. "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." Mat 24:9). That departure would be in association with the revelation of the man of sin who abominates (defiles) the temple by shewing himself to be God while sitting in it. It is only after those events that Christ's return will be possible.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Neither the day of Christ nor the day of the Lord can come until these events take place. Both the day of Christ and the day of the Lord begin at the same time. One is the coming of the Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with His church, and the other is the coming of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. They both begin at the same time, at His one and only second coming (Heb 9:28). His second coming takes place in the second half of the week after the great tribulation is cut short (Matt 24:22, 29).

It appears that the Beast is resurrected and empowered by Satan in the middle of the future seventieth week (Rev 13:3). It is at that point that he is revealed in the temple being shown to the world that he is God. I believe that there is a good case to be made that initially the Jews will believe that he is their Messiah and receive him ("I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." John 5:43). Paul(~51AD), Jesus(~32AD), and John(~96AD) all describe the fact that miracles, signs, and lying wonders are associated with the Beast's revelation and worship. These wonders will play heavily into the deception that causes so many to fall away.

There is nothing unparalleled about a persecution that lasts the entire history of the Church. These are being persecuted for Jesus name sake (Matt 24:9). These are Christians, not unbelieving Jews. However, it is true that the unbelieving Jews will also be persecuted (Rev 12). Each of these periods of persecution are said to be unparalleled.

Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

How can they be said to be unique from all others if there is no other available period of persecution to compare them with? The great tribulation is yet to come; it is absolute foolishness to think that it has been going on for 2000 years. However, it is absolutely true that both the church and the Jews have experienced persecution, sometimes severe, over the last 2000 years. The present tribulation is very limited in comparison to that which is to come.

Don't be deceived, the Antichrist comes before the Lord Jesus Christ. When Christ comes there will be no question it is Him, the whole world will see Him arrive with the holy angels in the clouds (Matt 24:27, 30; Mark 8:38; Rev 1:7). At that time the earth dwellers who have received the mark of the Beast and worship him, and who have been persecuting the church, will attempt to hide (Rev 6:12-17; Isa 2:19) and the persecuted saints which remain alive through the great tribulation will look up and lift up their heads for their redemption draweth nigh (Luke 21:28).

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,536
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,426
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Retrobyter, I can't disagree with you more. The next messianic figure to be welcomed onto the world stage is not the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, it is the Beast, the man of sin. The Jew's aren't welcoming Christ to return. There is less than 2% of the population of Israel that claim to be Christians, 10%-12% are followers of Orthodox Judaism, which denounces Christ, and the remaining population is predominately secularists, muslims, etc..

The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed over 30 years after the time frame you present for the seventieth week. Yet it is mentioned after the sixty ninth week.

Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The fact is that Jesus references the great tribulation to the middle of the last week in the seventy weeks prophecy. The great tribulation is said to begin when the temple is defiled, which He called the abomination of desolation. This same abomination is said to be future by Paul in 2Thes 2 which he wrote more than 15 years after Jesus ascended into heaven and sat down at the right hand of the Father.

Paul's epistles were all written after the time you say the seventieth week ended. Paul teaches the same thing that Jesus did: that there would come a great departure from the Christian Faith (4 times in Matt 24 He warns of the deception of that time. A combination of the deception and severe persecution will bring about the notable apostasy. "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." Mat 24:9). That departure would be in association with the revelation of the man of sin who abominates (defiles) the temple by shewing himself to be God while sitting in it. It is only after those events that Christ's return will be possible.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Neither the day of Christ nor the day of the Lord can come until these events take place. Both the day of Christ and the day of the Lord begin at the same time. One is the coming of the Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with His church, and the other is the coming of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. They both begin at the same time, at His one and only second coming (Heb 9:28). His second coming takes place in the second half of the week after the great tribulation is cut short (Matt 24:22, 29).

It appears that the Beast is resurrected and empowered by Satan in the middle of the future seventieth week (Rev 13:3). It is at that point that he is revealed in the temple being shown to the world that he is God. I believe that there is a good case to be made that initially the Jews will believe that he is their Messiah and receive him ("I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." John 5:43). Paul(~51AD), Jesus(~32AD), and John(~96AD) all describe the fact that miracles, signs, and lying wonders are associated with the Beast's revelation and worship. These wonders will play heavily into the deception that causes so many to fall away.

There is nothing unparalleled about a persecution that lasts the entire history of the Church. These are being persecuted for Jesus name sake (Matt 24:9). These are Christians, not unbelieving Jews. However, it is true that the unbelieving Jews will also be persecuted (Rev 12). Each of these periods of persecution are said to be unparalleled.

Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

How can they be said to be unique from all others if there is no other available period of persecution to compare them with? The great tribulation is yet to come; it is absolute foolishness to think that it has been going on for 2000 years. However, it is absolutely true that both the church and the Jews have experienced persecution, sometimes severe, over the last 2000 years. The present tribulation is very limited in comparison to that which is to come.

Don't be deceived, the Antichrist comes before the Lord Jesus Christ. When Christ comes there will be no question it is Him, the whole world will see Him arrive with the holy angels in the clouds (Matt 24:27, 30; Mark 8:38; Rev 1:7). At that time the earth dwellers who have received the mark of the Beast and worship him, and who have been persecuting the church, will attempt to hide (Rev 6:12-17; Isa 2:19) and the persecuted saints which remain alive through the great tribulation will look up and lift up their heads for their redemption draweth nigh (Luke 21:28).

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Shalom, Steve Conley.

Ho-hum. Like I haven't heard all this cookie-cutter theology before. And, lots of cookie-cutter details are STILL just cookie-cutter theology.

But, let's explore this NONSENSE piece by piece, shall we?

You said, "The Jew's [sic] aren't welcoming Christ to return." Actually, the Jews (and all the children of Israel, not just the children of Yhudah or Judah) will welcome their Messiah GLADLY when they are under attack. They'll think that He is coming for the FIRST TIME, not realizing that He's been here before!

And, technically, He's not "YOUR Christ" anymore than He's "THEIR Messiah!" He is GOD'S Messiah - GOD'S Choice for King! And, Yeshua` ("Jesus") SHALL BE Yhudah's King, as He was born to be ("the King of the Jews"). Then, He SHALL BE Israel's King. And, one by one, either by assimilation through voluntary, tributary states or by absorption through involuntary, conquered states, He'll become the King of kings, the Emperor of the World. This will take time; in fact, it will occur over the course of a thousand years.

The Jews may reject the title "Christ," but they are HIGHLY attuned to the title "Mashiyach," and will welcome HIM! And, as George Washington McClintock (John Wayne) said of his butler, Drago, "He doesn't know any better than to speak the truth; he's just ignorant!" Same with the Jews.

Now, when is the "Judgment Seat of Christ?" If you said, "It's in heaven during the seven years of tribulation," it just shows how susceptible you are to GENTILE "CHRISTIAN" explanations for things. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the Messiah's judgment seat would be when the Messiah is ruling and reigning for 1,000 years? One of the jobs of a king, especially a king of Israel, is to be the SUPREME COURT JUDGE, as David and Shlomoh ("Solomon") were! Now, he may choose to delegate some of the judgment to subordinates, as Mosheh ("Moses") did, but the important matters would be handled by the King.

When will the marriage supper of the Lamb take place? AGAIN, if you said, "It's in heaven during the seven years of tribulation on earth," you're falling for a GENTILE explanation for something that should be interpreted from an Israeli point of view! A marriage supper is punctuated with wine as a part of the celebration (such as in the marriage at Cana, Yeshua`s first miracle during His offer of the Kingdom to Israel). HOWEVER, Yeshua` told His disciples just before He went to the cross,

Matthew 26:29 (KJV)

29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

And, lest you think His Kingdom is "going on right now" or will be "in heaven," why are we encouraged to pray,

Matthew 6:10 (KJV)

10 (Let) Thy kingdom come. (Let) Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.?

Yeshua` also said in a parable, 

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens (the Jews of His time) hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that WHEN HE WAS RETURNED, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

He also said in the Olivet Discourse as recorded in Matthew 25,

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them (the nations) one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

We learn from the rest of the parable, that the "sheep" nations are those who treated His FAMILY well. The "goat" nations are those who mistreated or even abused His FAMILY! And, who is His FAMILY? Gentile Christians like to throw in... 

Mark 3:31-35 (KJV)

31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without (outside), sent unto him, calling him. 32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without (outside) seek for thee. 33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

...because it almost sounds like He's changing His brothers, (sisters), and mother into "those who do the will of God," but we learn later that He still cares for His mother and His brothers (and sisters). He's just ADDED TO THEM those who do God's Will! So, we can add them into this account of the sheep and the goat nations, WITHOUT discounting the Jews or the other children of Israel!

More later....

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  5
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  401
  • Content Per Day:  0.18
  • Reputation:   226
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  02/19/2018
  • Status:  Offline

28 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Steve Conley.

Ho-hum. Like I haven't heard all this cookie-cutter theology before. And, lots of cookie-cutter details are STILL just cookie-cutter theology.

But, let's explore this NONSENSE piece by piece, shall we?

You said, "The Jew's [sic] aren't welcoming Christ to return." Actually, the Jews (and all the children of Israel, not just the children of Yhudah or Judah) will welcome their Messiah GLADLY when they are under attack. They'll think that He is coming for the FIRST TIME, not realizing that He's been here before!

And, technically, He's not "YOUR Christ" anymore than He's "THEIR Messiah!" He is GOD'S Messiah - GOD'S Choice for King! And, Yeshua` ("Jesus") SHALL BE Yhudah's King, as He was born to be ("the King of the Jews"). Then, He SHALL BE Israel's King. And, one by one, either by assimilation through voluntary, tributary states or by absorption through involuntary, conquered states, He'll become the King of kings, the Emperor of the World. This will take time; in fact, it will occur over the course of a thousand years.

The Jews may reject the title "Christ," but they are HIGHLY attuned to the title "Mashiyach," and will welcome HIM! And, as George Washington McClintock (John Wayne) said of his butler, Drago, "He doesn't know any better than to speak the truth; he's just ignorant!" Same with the Jews.

Now, when is the "Judgment Seat of Christ?" If you said, "It's in heaven during the seven years of tribulation," it just shows how susceptible you are to GENTILE "CHRISTIAN" explanations for things. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the Messiah's judgment seat would be when the Messiah is ruling and reigning for 1,000 years? One of the jobs of a king, especially a king of Israel, is to be the SUPREME COURT JUDGE, as David and Shlomoh ("Solomon") were! Now, he may choose to delegate some of the judgment to subordinates, as Mosheh ("Moses") did, but the important matters would be handled by the King.

When will the marriage supper of the Lamb take place? AGAIN, if you said, "It's in heaven during the seven years of tribulation on earth," you're falling for a GENTILE explanation for something that should be interpreted from an Israeli point of view! A marriage supper is punctuated with wine as a part of the celebration (such as in the marriage at Cana, Yeshua`s first miracle during His offer of the Kingdom to Israel). HOWEVER, Yeshua` told His disciples just before He went to the cross,

Matthew 26:29 (KJV)

29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

And, lest you think His Kingdom is "going on right now" or will be "in heaven," why are we encouraged to pray,

Matthew 6:10 (KJV)

10 (Let) Thy kingdom come. (Let) Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.?

Yeshua` also said in a parable, 

Luke 19:11-15 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens (the Jews of His time) hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that WHEN HE WAS RETURNED, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

He also said in the Olivet Discourse as recorded in Matthew 25,

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them (the nations) one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

We learn from the rest of the parable, that the "sheep" nations are those who treated His FAMILY well. The "goat" nations are those who mistreated or even abused His FAMILY! And, who is His FAMILY? Gentile Christians like to throw in... 

Mark 3:31-35 (KJV)

31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without (outside), sent unto him, calling him. 32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without (outside) seek for thee. 33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

...because it almost sounds like He's changing His brothers, (sisters), and mother into "those who do the will of God," but we learn later that He still cares for His mother and His brothers (and sisters). He's just ADDED TO THEM those who do God's Will! So, we can add them into this account of the sheep and the goat nations, WITHOUT discounting the Jews or the other children of Israel!

More later....

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Retrobyter, did you even read my comments? Hardly anything in your reply is related to my comments. Did you mean to reply to another discussion?

We were considering from the Word of God whether it would be the Antichrist (Beast, man of sin) or Christ who would show up next on the world stage. You say Christ. The Bible says the Antichrist.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We were also looking at your novel idea that we have been experiencing the great tribulation for the last 2000 years.

The great tribulation begins in the middle of the seventieth week (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27). The seventieth week is the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy involving 490 years. Before all 490 years are over six specific things are said to be accomplished. One of these is "anoint the most holy."(Dan 9:24) This is in reference to the holy of holies in the temple. There must be a rebuilt temple and it must be cleansed and sanctified from the defilement of the Beast. It appears that this is the last thing in the list of six to be accomplished.

It is interesting to note that the celebration of Hanukkah comes typically 75 days after Yom Kippur. Hanukkah is the celebration of the cleansing and rededication of the Temple after its defilement by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Notice the additional 75 days (added to the 1260).

Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Before the great tribulation can begin the Beast must defile the temple. Before the Beast can defile the temple there must be a temple. At least Israel is back in the land.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Non-Trinitarian
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  3,490
  • Content Per Day:  0.96
  • Reputation:   88
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  04/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

On 19/02/2018 at 6:15 AM, Steve Conley said:

In this brief post, I would like to make a strong case for Michael the archangel being the restrainer that Paul says is withholding the revelation of the man of sin until it is God's determined time.

 

I believe the restrainer to be Satan instead.

This is evident in the war with Michael. Michael is not restraining Satan....but expelling Satan.

It is Satan who is trying to restrain from being expelled to prevent the following from happening

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Satan is forced to enter the antichrist hence the antichrist can be revealed.

The same concept is found in Dan 10

But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

It wasn't Michael doing the restraining but the evil entity instead.

 

 

 

  • Oy Vey! 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Non-Trinitarian
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  3,490
  • Content Per Day:  0.96
  • Reputation:   88
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  04/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

On 19/02/2018 at 5:12 PM, angels4u said:



Of course, the Spirit works through believers to accomplish this. The church, indwelt by the Spirit of God, has always been part of what holds society back from the swelling tide of lawless living. At some point, Paul says, the Spirit will “step aside” from His restraining work, allowing sin to have dominion over mankind. Second Thessalonians 2:7 can be literally rendered, “The secret of lawlessness is already working, only it cannot be revealed until he who now withholds disappears from the midst.” We believe this “disappearing from the midst” will happen at the time the church leaves the earth at the rapture. The Holy Spirit will still be present in the earth, of course, but He will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique sin-restraining ministry—through God’s people—will be removed (see Genesis 6:3).
 

Then the holy Spirit has clearly failed....

There is no biblical scripture of more than two or three witnesses the holy spirit has the function of restraining 

Let me put it this way; why would the Holy spirit cover up the appearance of the antichrist?

Edited by inchrist
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  56
  • Topic Count:  1,664
  • Topics Per Day:  0.20
  • Content Count:  19,763
  • Content Per Day:  2.39
  • Reputation:   12,160
  • Days Won:  28
  • Joined:  08/22/2001
  • Status:  Offline

23 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Then the holy Spirit has clearly failed....

There is no biblical scripture of more than two or three witnesses the holy spirit has the function of restraining 

Let me put it this way; why would the Holy spirit cover up the appearance of the antichrist?

The Holy Spirit is God and will still save people during the Tribulation,where do you think the power of the 2 witnesses is coming from ? The Holy Spirit will not dwell in people because the Christians are gone but He will still fall on people like in the O>T> and He will still save people,it will be very difficult to be a Christion in those days and they will be in danger of getting killed.

How else can people get saved if not through the Holy Spirit?  ( God)

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,957
  • Content Per Day:  0.57
  • Reputation:   295
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

Amen to the above posting

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Non-Trinitarian
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  3,490
  • Content Per Day:  0.96
  • Reputation:   88
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  04/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

22 hours ago, angels4u said:

The Holy Spirit is God and will still save people during the Tribulation,where do you think the power of the 2 witnesses is coming from ? The Holy Spirit will not dwell in people because the Christians are gone but He will still fall on people like in the O>T> and He will still save people,it will be very difficult to be a Christion in those days and they will be in danger of getting killed.

How else can people get saved if not through the Holy Spirit?  ( God)

You didn't really answer my question. Why would I question God's capability of saving people in the tribulation...that's not the debate.

My question that I asked was why would the Holy spirit cover up the appearance of the antichrist?

Edited by inchrist
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,536
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,426
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Retrobyter, did you even read my comments? Hardly anything in your reply is related to my comments. Did you mean to reply to another discussion?

Shalom, Steve Conley.

Of course I read your comments! However, to be honest, I really didn't need to read them since I already knew them by heart, having heard them almost all of the 60 years of my life! My reply is to establish a certain amount of agreement before branching into the portions of which differ between us.

If you're a typical, premillennial, pre-tribulational rapturist, then we should start with the fact that Yeshua` shall come and reign for the next 1000 years - the Millennium. THAT'S His Kingdom, and like His ancestor David said, it's actually His FATHER'S Kingdom of which He is the Representative King.

So, I spent some time nailing down when His Kingdom would take place and introduced you to the REAL "Christ" - the REAL "Messiah," the Anointed One to be King.

Also, within the introduction to the true Kingdom of God over which the Messiah will literally and physically reign here on this earth for a thousand years (at least), I also knocked the props out from underneath the idea of a 7-year tribulation period. Those props are in two subcategories, the earthly categories and the "heavenly" categories. The two major "heavenly" categories are (1) the Judgment Seat of Christ, and (2) the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, neither of which happen BEFORE the Messiah begins His reign!

Now, I DID say, "More later...." So, let's continue on...

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

We were considering from the Word of God whether it would be the Antichrist (Beast, man of sin) or Christ who would show up next on the world stage. You say Christ. The Bible says the Antichrist.

OR, so YOU believe. Actually, it's your INTERPRETATION OF the Bible that says it's the Antichrist. Therefore, it is just YOU that says it's the Antichrist.

IF you base your conclusion at all on Daniel 9, then you're in error. Here's why:

The text of Daniel 9:26-27 says this in the KJV (and I use the KJV because some won't have another version; so, I won't confuse them or alienate them with a different version):

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV)

26 And (after threescore and two weeks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not (for himself): and the people (of the prince (that shall come)) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant (with many) (for one week): and (in the midst) (of the week) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and (for the overspreading of abominations) he shall make it desolate, even (until the consummation), and that determined shall be poured (upon the desolate).

First, let's go back to English class and "remove" the prepositional phrases, as I have done above, by placing them in parentheses. I've also marked off the subordinate clause behind "the prince," namely "that shall come."

Now, we learn from English that subject-predicate identification cannot be in the prepositional phrases. Therefore, the "he" in verse 27 CANNOT refer back to the "prince that shall come," because "prince" is the OBJECT OF A PREPOSITION! As such, the "he" must go back farther and comes to the "Messiah" in the first part of the verse. Thus, the antecedent of the word "he," found 3 times in verse 27, is "Messiah!"

This is not only true in English, but it's also true in Hebrew: The Hebrew of these two verses is as follows (transliterated):

Daniy'eel 9:26-27 (JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh based on the Masoretic Text)

26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt: 
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:

26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
hashaavu`iym = the-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
low = not
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-destroy
`am = people
naagiyd = [of]-prince

habaa’ = the-comer
v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
basheTef = in-a-flood
v’`ad = and-until
qeets = end
milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = desolations:
27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-for
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate:

In Hebrew, back-to-back nouns are called a "noun construct state" and the second noun is subordinate to the first. Therefore, in a noun construct state, the phrase "sar shalom" would be rendered "prince of peace," and the "peace" takes a "backseat" to the noun "prince."

In the above case, the noun construct state is highlighted, namely, "`am naagiyd," and is translated as "people of prince," and for clarity, we might choose to add some definite articles, "[the] people of [the] prince," although the definite articles are not in the original text.

In Hebrew, the second noun cannot be considered the subject of a sentence, and therefore cannot be the antecedent for the verbs in verse 27, V’higbiyryashbiyt, and m’shomeem. Thus, in Hebrew as well, these verbs are applied to the next singular personal noun that can be a subject, "Maashiyach."

What this means is that Daniel 9 is great for talking about the Messiah, but does NOT talk about the "Antichrist" AT ALL! And yet, many theologians use Daniel 9:27 to suggest that the Antichrist will make a covenant with Israel and break it in the middle of the Week (the seven years). HOWEVER, since this doesn't have anything to do with the Antichrist, there's nothing to demand that the "tribulation period" should be seven years long!

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We were also looking at your novel idea that we have been experiencing the great tribulation for the last 2000 years.

Exactly. So, we have established that the tribulation need not be a mere seven years, because it has nothing to do with Daniel 9:27. This three-verse segment tells us the end, but not the beginning of the tribulation.

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

The great tribulation begins in the middle of the seventieth week (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27).

Oops! Can't use Daniel 9:27.

Matthew 24:15 does INDEED show us the beginning of the tribulation:

Matthew 24:9-28 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you (the disciples to whom He was talking) up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then (you) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 (You) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither (you) let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation (Greek: thlipsis megalee), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo (Look!), here is Christ (the Messiah)!, or there (he is!); believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert!; (you) go not forth!: behold, he is in the secret chambers!; (you) believe it not!. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

First, this passage makes sense for Jews in the first century A.D. It does NOT make sense in today's world. For instance, why would He specify "them which be in Judaea (the Land of Y'hudah, the southern portion of the Land-given-by-God-to-the-children-of-Israel)?" What good is fleeing into the mountains in a world that has satellite imagery looking for heat signatures? Furthermore, the mountains of Israel are where the Palestinians live in the "West Bank!" And, what's up with not coming down drom the housetop if they see something bad happening? What do Gentiles care if their escape is on the Shabbat - the Sabbath Day? Any day of the week would be just fine! Many don't even mind traveling on a Sunday!

Second, I've taken the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse - Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 - and harmonized them in the Greek FIRST and THEN translated them as a single account into English. You'd be surprised at how well they fit together in Greek! In the process, you learn a few things: Yeshua` is primarily talking to His disciples (and not just the Twelve, btw) and one can see this in the use of the words "humeis," "humoon," "humin," "humas," and the verbs that end in tau-epsilon ("-te") and in sigma-theta-epsilon ("-sthe"). The second-person, plural pronouns and the imperative verbs for the second-person, plural, both active and middle (passive). Whether Yeshua` was speaking to them in Hebrew or Aramaic, it was translated this way into the Greek in all three accounts. He was speaking TO THEM and giving them COMMANDS! As one might say from the Southern U.S. states, "Y'all, DO this! Y'all, DON'T do that!" Several times, He starts out by talking to them directly - warning them of things to come IN THEIR LIFETIME; then, He peers off into the future and begins to use other pronouns and nouns to indicate a future generation. Then, He'll pop back to the present to warn them directly again. He repeats this pattern several times within the Olivet Discourse. In English, look for the pronouns "you," "your," and "yours," and verbs that have a "you" understood (the command form of the verbs).

The conclusion is, then, that this "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis) started in the First Century A.D. even though it doesn't end until the sun, moon, and stars signs, which are yet in our future! So, how long does that make this unprecedented "great tribulation?"

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

The seventieth week is the last 7 years of Daniel's prophecy involving 490 years. (True.) Before all 490 years are over six specific things are said to be accomplished. (True.) One of these is "anoint the most holy."(Dan 9:24) (True.) This is in reference to the holy of holies in the temple. (True...maybe. It's also possible that "the most holy" refers to the Messiah Himself.) There must be a rebuilt temple (true) and it must be cleansed and sanctified from the defilement of the Beast (OOPS!). It appears that this is the last thing in the list of six to be accomplished.

I don't deny any of this; HOWEVER, it is WRONG to say that this "last 7 years of Daniel's (Gavri'el's) prophecy involving 490 years" is the "tribulation!" There must indeed be a rebuilt temple, but where do you get that it was "defiled by the Beast?" Don't look to Daniel 9; it's not there. Don't look to Daniel 11; that's about Antiochus IV "Epiphanes!" That temple WAS so cleansed by the Maccabees (the "Hammer") and his brothers!

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

It is interesting to note that the celebration of Hanukkah comes typically 75 days after Yom Kippur. Hanukkah is the celebration of the cleansing and rededication of the Temple after its defilement by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Notice the additional 75 days (added to the 1260).

Dan 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Perhaps, but why couldn't this be talking about the ORIGINAL "festival of Lights" and the ORIGINAL Yowm Kippur ("Day of Atonement") in that year?

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Before the great tribulation can begin the Beast must defile the temple.

WHO SAYS?! The Scriptures CERTAINLY don't say that!

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Before the Beast can defile the temple there must be a temple. At least Israel is back in the land.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.

There SHALL be a temple. Remember when I said,

On 2/25/2018 at 3:02 AM, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` gave us this timeline:

Matthew 23:39 (KJV)

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till (until) ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This is a quotation from Psalm 118:26, which in context says,

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25Save now, (Hebrew: howshi`aah naa' transliterated into Greek as "hosanna") I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD (Hebrew: Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH): we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The phrase "baruwkh haba'" is used today, in its plural form, "baruwkhiym haba'iym," at all the airports and seaports in Israel as a "welcome."

sign_welcome1.jpg

?

Well, look at the second part of verse 26: "we have blessed (welcomed) you out of the house of the LORD." That's hard to do without a "house of the LORD" or a temple. So, yes, a third temple will be built.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...