Esau hated by God (before birth)?

[other one]

2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The physics of Einstein work well until you get to the very near the Big Bang.

within our 4th dimension that is so.    The other dimensions not so.

[Omegaman 3.0]

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Do you consider Paul to be speaking of God hating Esau in the womb? I think Paul it is saying before they were born was to distinguish God's choice. The result being in his handling of the two in their  future. I don't think God's hatred there is like we think of hatred.

I tend to think that "hated" MIGHT be a relative term, or maybe not. For example, Jesus said:

26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 

If what Jesus said is true (and of course it is), and He means by hate the way I think of the word hate, then I cannot be His disciple. He also said:

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

We miss what is being said I think, when we impose English and modern western thought onto ancient, foreign languages and cultures.

I am going to go out of my way to offer what is ONLY an opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

I am imposing the idea, that Jesus is saying that unless you love your parents less (hate) than you love me, you cannot be my disciple. Jesus must be first, is most important.

Similarly, I am thinking that love your enemies is not about having warm, fuzzy feelings for them, it is about seeking their good - love as an action, not an emotion.

Transferring this type of thinking (perhaps erroneously) to the Esau/Jacob question, I am thinking that there, God is speaking about his sovereign choice to pick who ever He wants to, for his own purposes, and does not owe anything to anyone, including an explanation to us!

And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 

Jacob was a conniver, and Esau did not value his birthright. These things were true in their lives but had nothing to do with how they were in the womb. It is possible, that God made His choice based upon foreknowledge, but it is not necessarily true.

Even if we assume that as the basis (I do not, by the way - if we mean knowing about things ahead of time), we would also have to look at what foreknowledge even means, if we can even know that!

We tend to think of knowledge, and some collection of facts that we have come to understand intellectually, and therefore, that means that God knows things ahead of time. It is no doubt true, that God does know things ahead of time. However, here again if we limit our thinking of what knowledge is, we are imposing modern English/western culture again.

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.”

and

When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Further

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Certainly above, Jesus knew all about them and everything they hade done, but He rejected them because He never knew them. Now, one more example:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

What I am doing above, is attempting to demonstrate that in Bible terms, knowing can be a term describing intimate relationship, not merely being aware of facts. My proposition is that perhaps what is going on with the God/Esau/Jacob thing, is that God hated (loved less, had little regard for) Esau whether because of what Esau was going to become, or for some other reason, of even for no reason whatsoever. or even just because He had a purpose in mind for him, which was different than for Jacob (which I think personally, is patently obvious).

With this in mind, God did not have a foreknowledge (predestined love for) of Esau, yet did not "hate" Esau, the way we think of the word "hate." While that is true in this case in the womb, it could have been from before the foundation of the world.

Again, I apologize for injecting ideas that are not explicit in the text, but the notions come from scriptural principles about Gods character, action, thought, and methods.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

Clearly, God has some things planned, apart from what we do or will do, that are contained in His own timing way before we existed, and which He does not always explain, nor are we owed an explanation. Those who can, embrace and love His sovereignty, trusting that everything He does is good.

[Selah7]

Greetings. . . and here are some considerations regarding Romans 9:10-13.  Let’s read it again:

And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

…

So God formed a covenant with father Abraham, and by birthright, it was passed down to Isaac.  Now in Genesis 25, it seems that Esau showed so little regard for his birthright that he sold it to Jacob for some red pottage because he was hungry.  
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.  Genesis 25:30 (KJV)

Note what’s written in Malachi 1:4:  

The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.  Malachi 1:1-4 (KJV)

When Rebekah became aware that Isaac was about to personally pass on that birthright to Esau, we see that Rebekah deceived Isaac into thinking Jacob was Esau, and so, Isaac blessed Jacob instead of Esau.

I believe that all of these events involving Esau and Jacob were clearly orchestrated by our omniscient Father in heaven. Remember how God told Rebekah years before, when Esau and Jacob were still babes in her womb, that the younger would serve the elder and be greater than the older?  This is key.

And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.   Genesis 25:23 (KJV)

Also, we need to consider that God would never grant Esau the blessing following Esau’s marriage to Hittite wives. The Hittites were mixed peoples with the Nephilim, and there would be a risk of bloodline contamination; for the Messiah’s lineage would come through the pure bloodline of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and now Jacob.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Selah7

[HAZARD]

Mal. 1:1-3, V 1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 
    2, I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 
    3, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 

Hate, as used here us an idiom of preference, as in Luke 14:25-27, not a term pressing personal malice or jealousy in the sense that we now use (V 1).

This is the 6th of 12 cases in Scripture where God made a choice of the younger over the older brother. Here it was because of the disposition and attitude toward Him. Esau was a fornicator and destitute of hunger for God in his life (Heb. 12:16-17), while Jacob was the type that loved the Lord and hungered to do his will.

[branchesofHim]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

Mal. 1:1-3, V 1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 
    2, I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 
    3, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 

Interesting point as God did give the mountain unto Esau. Shalom

Deuteronomy 2:[4] And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:
[5] Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
[6] Ye shall buy meat of them for money, that ye may eat; and ye shall also buy water of them for money, that ye may drink.

[Anne2]

23 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I tend to think that "hated" MIGHT be a relative term, or maybe not. For example, Jesus said:

26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 

If what Jesus said is true (and of course it is), and He means by hate the way I think of the word hate, then I cannot be His disciple. He also said:

“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

We miss what is being said I think, when we impose English and modern western thought onto ancient, foreign languages and cultures.

I am going to go out of my way to offer what is ONLY an opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

I am imposing the idea, that Jesus is saying that unless you love your parents less (hate) than you love me, you cannot be my disciple. Jesus must be first, is most important.

Similarly, I am thinking that love your enemies is not about having warm, fuzzy feelings for them, it is about seeking their good - love as an action, not an emotion.

Transferring this type of thinking (perhaps erroneously) to the Esau/Jacob question, I am thinking that there, God is speaking about his sovereign choice to pick who ever He wants to, for his own purposes, and does not owe anything to anyone, including an explanation to us!

And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 

Jacob was a conniver, and Esau did not value his birthright. These things were true in their lives but had nothing to do with how they were in the womb. It is possible, that God made His choice based upon foreknowledge, but it is not necessarily true.

Even if we assume that as the basis (I do not, by the way - if we mean knowing about things ahead of time), we would also have to look at what foreknowledge even means, if we can even know that!

We tend to think of knowledge, and some collection of facts that we have come to understand intellectually, and therefore, that means that God knows things ahead of time. It is no doubt true, that God does know things ahead of time. However, here again if we limit our thinking of what knowledge is, we are imposing modern English/western culture again.

Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.”

and

When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Further

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Certainly above, Jesus knew all about them and everything they hade done, but He rejected them because He never knew them. Now, one more example:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

What I am doing above, is attempting to demonstrate that in Bible terms, knowing can be a term describing intimate relationship, not merely being aware of facts. My proposition is that perhaps what is going on with the God/Esau/Jacob thing, is that God hated (loved less, had little regard for) Esau whether because of what Esau was going to become, or for some other reason, of even for no reason whatsoever. or even just because He had a purpose in mind for him, which was different than for Jacob (which I think personally, is patently obvious).

With this in mind, God did not have a foreknowledge (predestined love for) of Esau, yet did not "hate" Esau, the way we think of the word "hate." While that is true in this case in the womb, it could have been from before the foundation of the world.

Again, I apologize for injecting ideas that are not explicit in the text, but the notions come from scriptural principles about Gods character, action, thought, and methods.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

Clearly, God has some things planned, apart from what we do or will do, that are contained in His own timing way before we existed, and which He does not always explain, nor are we owed an explanation. Those who can, embrace and love His sovereignty, trusting that everything He does is good.

Yes, I agree about "loving Esau less". I thought that very thing as I was finishing my post. As for opinions , it was just my opinion as well as I gave the IMO several times. I thought about the  hired laborers. One hired for a wage at the beginning of the day, then hiring others as the day went on. Each got the same wage but some only worked a few hours and some worked a full day for the same wage. There was only upset at the wage when they realized the deal the others got. But of course I think Esau wasn't upset because he didn't see Jacob as having really taken much of anything at all.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Anne2

[Omegaman 3.0]

22 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

But of course I think Esau wasn't upset because he didn't see Jacob as having really taken much of anything at all.

I am not sure Esau was not upset:

Hebrews 12

 15See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

[Riverwalker]

Romans 9 is quoting Malachi 1 2-3  (well after they were gone and buried)

This is not talking about hate as we know it

God favored Jacob, made a nation of Him, because he was a smart a wily man who listened and sought out God

Esau was a lout and slow coach who sold his birth rite for a bowl of stew.  God could not make a nation from that

So He favored (loved) Jacob and disfavored (hated) Esua

Edited January 31, 2022 by Riverwalker

[Anne2]

15 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I am not sure Esau was not upset:

Hebrews 12

 15See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

There is no indication in the text that he was. And he didn't think much of the birthright so, I am assuming from that. As for seeking it with tears, he lied to his father as far as I can see. He accused Jacob of stealing both his birthright and his blessing as well. I think he was mainly concerned for the earthly things of the estate of his father which the firstborn received, he did not know Jacob was going to up and leave. He was therefore going to kill him. But as always just my opinion on the text.

[Omegaman 3.0]

11 hours ago, Anne2 said:

There is no indication in the text that he was. And he didn't think much of the birthright so, I am assuming from that.

Well, I am basing my assessment that he was upset, from the statement I quoted about his tears, I doubt they were tears of joy, that is all!

"For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears."