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Just How Close is the RAPTURE?

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satan comes first period!!,

If one does not understand that,they will ,no if's and's or but's about it,you will be deceived ..

Edited by n2thelight

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In case you missed it, the church on the day of Pentecost was a Jewish church. That church died out.  God turned to the Gentiles.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. mad, In case you missed it, that which began on the day of Pentecost will continue until the day of the Lord.

Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus told the disciples that He would be with them in their disciple-making ministry until the end of the age.

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus when speaking concerning His coming (parousia) at the end of the age (Matt 24:3) said that the Gospel will be preached unto all nations after which the end shall come.

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul taught that unbelieving Jews were broken off from the promises made to the fathers. Paul further said that this cutting off allowed believing Gentiles to be graffed in among the remnant of Jews who believed and thereby be made fellow partakers of those promises, which promises are all found in Christ.

Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul didn't teach the substitution of Isreal with Gentile believers, he taught the adding of Gentile believers to the new covenant made with believing Israel.

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

There has always been a remnant of believing Israel even in the darkest hours of that nation, spiritually speaking. There are believing Jews today who's promises we believing Gentiles are privileged to enjoy in Christ.

What a wonderful Saviour, Jesus Christ the Lord

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. mad, In case you missed it, that which began on the day of Pentecost will continue until the day of the Lord.

Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus told the disciples that He would be with them in their disciple-making ministry until the end of the age.

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus when speaking concerning His coming (parousia) at the end of the age (Matt 24:3) said that the Gospel will be preached unto all nations after which the end shall come.

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Paul taught that unbelieving Jews were broken off from the promises made to the fathers. Paul further said that this cutting off allowed believing Gentiles to be graffed in among the remnant of Jews who believed and thereby be made fellow partakers of those promises, which promises are all found in Christ.

Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul didn't teach the substitution of Isreal with Gentile believers, he taught the adding of Gentile believers to the new covenant made with believing Israel.

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

There has always been a remnant of believing Israel even in the darkest hours of that nation, spiritually speaking. There are believing Jews today who's promises we believing Gentiles are privileged to enjoy in Christ.

What a wonderful Saviour, Jesus Christ the Lord

OF COURSE the church will continue, but without the Jews. God turned to the Gentiles when Israel as a nation refused to accept Jesus as their messiah.  

I agree with you that Gentiles are grafted in. But that is the point: the church today is a Gentile church. And it will remain so until the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. At that time God will rapture the church and then the 70th week will begin: 7 years designed for HEBREW people.  We could say that God's FOCUS will be on the Jews and Hebrews after the pretrib rapture.

I understand there are a few Jews that have believed in Jesus, but they make up a very small percent of the church today. 

Edited by iamlamad
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10 hours ago, n2thelight said:

satan comes first period!!,

If one does not understand that,they will ,no if's and's or but's about it,you will be deceived ..

You have chosen to be wrong. It was your choice, and you took it. You could change, but preconceptions are so strong, I doubt if you will. 

Further more, you will probably be left behind when Jesus comes because you will not be expecting Him.  I hope that works out for you. Thirst can be a mighty powerful motivator! May I suggest you just turn yourself in before you get too thirsty?

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree with you that Gentiles are grafted in. But that is the point: the church today is a Gentile church. And it will remain so until the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. At that time God will rapture the church and then the 70th week will begin: 7 years designed for HEBREW people.  We could say that God's FOCUS will be on the Jews and Hebrews after the pretrib rapture.

And I think that these things are right at the door.  The scales are falling from many Hebrew eyes.  When one of the most venerated Haredi Rabbi's of Israel (Yitzhak Kaduri) makes the claim that Yeshua is indeed the promised Messiah, and several of his Yeshiva students have accepted Yeshua as the Messiah, there is no way to deny that the end time events are right at the door.  YHVH is already putting His focus on Israel again.

The stage is set.  Israel is a nation.  Those that come against Israel in the last days are joining up.  More Hebrew people are coming to faith in Yeshua than at any other time in history.  They are in the land and by being there, they are now searching the scriptures more and being more receptive to the Gospel of Yeshua.  Still a small percentage, but growing fast.  If someone can't see what is about to happen soon, they are living in a fantasy land.

Edited by OldCoot

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2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And I think that these things are right at the door.  The scales are falling from many Hebrew eyes.  When one of the most venerated Haredi Rabbi's of Israel (Yitzhak Kaduri) makes the claim that Yeshua is indeed the promised Messiah, and several of his Yeshiva students have accepted Yeshua as the Messiah, there is no way to deny that the end time events are right at the door.  YHVH is already putting His focus on Israel again.

The stage is set.  Israel is a nation.  Those that come against Israel in the last days are joining up.  More Hebrew people are coming to faith in Yeshua than at any other time in history.  They are in the land and by being there, they are now searching the scriptures more and being more receptive to the Gospel of Yeshua.  Still a small percentage, but growing fast.  If someone can't see what is about to happen soon, they are living in a fantasy land.

Wow, Old Coot! You said a mouthful there! Good job!   I agree, too many are living in fantasy. 

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I once woke up in the morning, because my doomsday prep friend sent me a text that said, "Dude its a blood moon, go check it out." So I went outside and there was a red lunar eclipse in the dawnlit sky.

I then spent the next week or so reading all the scriptures regarding the blood moons, and how there was a solar eclipse in like, april 2015.

I was sitting there in my glass office in the morning with my gym all to myself, looking outside. I watched the sun emerge from behind the clouds and I said, "Well god, I'm not going to sit here and obsess over this anymore. If something is going to happen, I expect you to prepare me for it."

I then sat down and resumed playing Doom in my underpants.

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Dennis.

This is a great post and its very encouraging. Thank you for sharing it. 

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18 hours ago, george747 said:

Dennis.

This is a great post and its very encouraging. Thank you for sharing it. 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Indeed the Lord has left us with enough revelation to know the times and seasons of Christ's return, that is if you are watching.

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

The times and seasons that we can know is the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will come upon the unbelieving world like a thief and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But we who know Christ and are watching will not be caught by surprise by the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

We will be spiritually awake and alert, unlike the lost world. We are watching because Christ told us what to watch for.

1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

While sudden destruction awaits them, our expectation at Christ's arrival upon the day of the Lord is salvation.

1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

We, who are Christ's, are not appointed unto the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord, but we shall be raptured to be with Him before the wrath falls.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Those who have been persecuting us who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will be tribulated by God.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

When Christ is revealed from heaven with the mighty angels we will rest from those who persecuted us.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

At that time Christ's wrath will be felt by our persecutors who believed not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The day of Christ (or the day of the Lord) which is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him will not be near in time until the falling away (apostasia = departure from the faith, many shall be offended Matt 24:9-10) that Jesus spoke of taking place following the beginning of the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) initiated by the Beast standing in the temple shewing himself to be God.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul had communicated these eschatological truths to them when in Thessalonica.

2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Now they know what is keeping Christ's coming and our gathering together unto Him from being near in time (at hand).

2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Even though the mystery of iniquity is already at work, it will continue to be restrained until Michael stands aside in the middle of the week

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

When Michael stands aside, the Beast, who is given power by Satan, will be revealed, but his end is to be destroyed.

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Indeed we are seeing indications that we are in the final years before Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence). However, that means that we should see the covenant confirmed, the Temple rebuilt, the sacrifices and offering instituted, conquest, war, famine, and earthquakes, the defiling of the Temple by the Beast which stops the sacrifice and offering, unprecedented persecution, and the falling away. When we have seen these we can know that Christ could come any day. However, His arrival will be portended by a notable cosmic sign which will indicate to those of us who are alive and remain that our redemption is nigh (could happen any minute).

Glory to Jesus Christ the Lord

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1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Indeed the Lord has left us with enough revelation to know the times and seasons of Christ's return, that is if you are watching.

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

The times and seasons that we can know is the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will come upon the unbelieving world like a thief and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But we who know Christ and are watching will not be caught by surprise by the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

We will be spiritually awake and alert, unlike the lost world. We are watching because Christ told us what to watch for.

1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

While sudden destruction awaits them, our expectation at Christ's arrival upon the day of the Lord is salvation.

1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

We, who are Christ's, are not appointed unto the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord, but we shall be raptured to be with Him before the wrath falls.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Those who have been persecuting us who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will be tribulated by God.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

When Christ is revealed from heaven with the mighty angels we will rest from those who persecuted us.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

At that time Christ's wrath will be felt by our persecutors who believed not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The day of Christ (or the day of the Lord) which is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him will not be near in time until the falling away (apostasia = departure from the faith, many shall be offended Matt 24:9-10) that Jesus spoke of taking place following the beginning of the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) initiated by the Beast standing in the temple shewing himself to be God.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul had communicated these eschatological truths to them when in Thessalonica.

2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Now they know what is keeping Christ's coming and our gathering together unto Him from being near in time (at hand).

2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Even though the mystery of iniquity is already at work, it will continue to be restrained until Michael stands aside in the middle of the week

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

When Michael stands aside, the Beast, who is given power by Satan, will be revealed, but his end is to be destroyed.

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Indeed we are seeing indications that we are in the final years before Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence). However, that means that we should see the covenant confirmed, the Temple rebuilt, the sacrifices and offering instituted, conquest, war, famine, and earthquakes, the defiling of the Temple by the Beast which stops the sacrifice and offering, unprecedented persecution, and the falling away. When we have seen these we can know that Christ could come any day. However, His arrival will be portended by a notable cosmic sign which will indicate to those of us who are alive and remain that our redemption is nigh (could happen any minute).

Glory to Jesus Christ the Lord

Hi Steve...

Great article. 

In 2Peter 3:10, we see this confirmation....

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up

Then in 2Peter 3:11-12, he further adds....

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! (2 Pet. 3:11-12)

So Peter is equating  the Day of the Lord and the Day of God, telling us they are one and the same. The same events happen in both cases.

This is just one more proof for a same day rapture and fiery judgment, and same day rapture and start of the Day of the Lord

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    • By Steve Conley
      Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
      Can someone please help me? Can you tell me if all these verses refer to the same event?
      Isa 2:12  For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
      Isa 2:13  And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
      Isa 2:14  And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
      Isa 2:15  And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
      Isa 2:16  And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
      Isa 2:17  And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
      Isa 2:18  And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
      Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
      Isa 2:20  In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
      Isa 2:21  To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
      Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
      Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
      Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
      Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
      Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
      Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
      Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
      Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
      Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
      Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
      Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
      Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
      Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
      Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
      Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
      Are each of these passages speaking of the same event? It appears that they are. Please provide proof if they are not all referring to the same event.
      Thanks
    • Guest Omegaman
      By Guest Omegaman
      The debate continues, and I suppose it will until/if the church finds itself recognizing that the antichrist/man of sin/beast/son of perdition/abomination that cuases desolation/etc. has been revealed and recognized.
       
      So, here is what I am asking, this is the question that this thread is about:
       
      Where in the bible is it stated, or which combination of verses do you believe imply (evidentially, not wishfully) that there is either:
       
      a secret coming of Jesus for the church before the great tribulation an invisible coming of Jesus for the church a two part second advent a scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His church, versus His coming with His church From my perspective, in case it is not obvious, the only thing invisible about Jesus coming, is that it is that the pre-trib rapture is invisible in the sense that it is no where to be found in scripture.
       
      Some of you disagree, what I am asking then, is for the biblical basis, the scriptural evidence, for one or more of the bulleted points (•) above. Some of you are so sure that Jesus will return before the great tribulation, that certainly you must have biblical evident of the truth or likelyhood, of the pre-trib return of Christ.
       
      To those who want to reply in this thread:
      Please stick to the premise of it, scriptural evidence for a coming of Jesus to catch up His church to be with Him prior to the great tribulation.
       
      I know that I am asking a lot of people to stay on topic. I understand that people are passionate about their eschatological beliefs. However, please exercise some self control and not start in with a statement of or defense of your own, other than pre-trib persuasion.
       
      Let's let this thread be limited to actual scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture.
       
      Opposing viewpoints are o.k., but limit those to just enough to present an answer to any posts claiming to present scriptural evidence of a pre-trib rapture, without making it about what you believe instead.
       
      To those taking up the challenge presented here, please note that I have gone to great lengths to be specific in limiting the type of posts appropriate to this thread. For example:
       
      Stating that "the rapture is Jesus coming for His church before the trib" is a definition of your belief, and is not scriptural evidence, such a statement is just an opinion, and is evidence that you believe, not for your belief. Stating things like "the church is not mentioned after verse such and such in Revelation", is also not evidence, it is merely an argument from silence. Stating that "the church is not destined to suffer God's wrath" is also not evidence, unless you can prove that the whole to the great tribulation is in fact the wrath of God, and that if the church is present for that, that she cannot and will not be protected from God's wrath during the great tribulation Hopefully, examples like those above, will convey the idea of what I am seeking, and that you can understand the nature of evidence as opposed to statements of faith in your doctrine. The idea here, is to present some quality reasons to believe in the pre-trib rapture. So here you have an opportunity. Please, give it a shot if you think that you have scriptural evidence.
       
      Thanks in advance
    • Guest
      By Guest
      In the topic of eschatology, few things are debated with more passion than the timing of the rapture with respect to the great tribulation. In online forums there are many opinions expressed. Some of them in my opinion are so far out there that few people if any take them very seriously.
        Some people read these topics and will express their opinion that the topics are not important. Somehow though, they seem to think it important to express their opinion that it isn't important. I have not quite figured that one out yet.
        One of the opinions often expressed is the tongue-in-cheek position:" I am pan tribulation". At the risk of possibly offending those people who say they are pan tribulation, I say this: "The pan-trib position is supposed to be cute or humorous, and I suppose it is the first time one hears it. By now though I am sure that I have heard it over 100 times, and to me it has become a worn-out old joke. I have been hearing it since the 1970s, so pardon me if I don't laugh too hard.

      Still there are those who are reading this post who have no doubt not heard of the pan-trib position even now. For their sakes I will explain the pan-trib position. "I do not care if the rapture is before, during, or after the tribulation, as long as it all pans out".
        I have very little respect for the pan-trib position. I suspect that people who hold that position fall into one of several categories: Perhaps they are too lazy to study the Bible. Perhaps they feel they are underqualified to have a real opinion. Perhaps they detest debate. Perhaps they are afraid to express their opinion.  
      Sometimes they will make the point that eschatology is not a salvational issue and therefore is not worth having a strong opinion about. It often seems to escape their notice though, that almost all of the Bible is not about salvational issues, so I would have to guess that most of the Bible is also not important to them.
       
      Considering how much space (in the New Testament especially) is devoted to eschatology by the apostles and even by Jesus Himself I find it extremely difficult and even disrespectful to imply that the things that Jesus said and that the apostles (who were inspired by God to write) expressed, are of little importance.

      Coming up with flippant, worn-out remarks does not in my mind, justify what seems to be an aire of superiority in being wishy-washy about Scripture.
       
      I know I am on my high horse. I know I am often on my high horse. I know that I am on my high horse frequently lately. You can reply to this post and inform me of that if you wish, but don't think you're telling me anything that I do not already know and freely admit.
        As I have already stated there are many opinions and many positions in the field of eschatology. The different positions contradict each other of course and most of them (if not all of them) contradict Scripture at at least one point. No more than one position can be 100% accurate and perhaps none of them are. In spite of the fact that I have used a lot of words so far in this post, I really only want to invite comments on the following proposition:   There are many reasons that people may use to explain why they believe what they believe about eschatology. With respect to the issue of whether or not the rapture is before, during, or after the great tribulation, I believe the following reasons should be discounted.   The character of God argument.   Some people believe that the church will not go through the great tribulation because it is not within the character of God to allow his church to suffer. This reasoning is invalid because God's people have always been allowed to suffer historically. This is true whether we are talking about the Jews or the Christians, prophets or apostles, martyrs since the time of Christ and even today, and of course Jesus himself who said a servant is not above his master.   If God has allowed his people to suffer for thousands of years, how can we think that it is not in God's character to allow such suffering?   Wishful thinking.   It is so easy for us in the West to find the idea of suffering distasteful. Many of us have never missed a meal even one time in our entire life nor slept without a roof over our head unless it was by choice. We live in a time and in cultures where most people have access to transportation which requires no physical work, access to nearly continual entertainment and access to vast amounts of knowledge that we never had to study to obtain.   I read just today that Google claims that the average Android user checks his or her Android 150 times each day. In these days of comfort and convenience, fast food and instant gratification, it is no wonder that some of us cannot conceive of going through a time of suffering and persecution lasting from 3-1/2 to 7 years. However, just because we have had it so easy does not mean there won't be a time when we will have it so hard.   I have gone on long enough. I intended to list a lot of reasons which are not valid reasons for believing some of the things that we do believe. It seems to me that in the area of eschatology the only reason to believe anything is because the Bible tells us so.   I am sure that many of us believe we believe what the Bible says about these things. It is my observation however that many of us if not most of us believe what we believe by taking preconceived ideas to the Scripture and then interpreting the Scripture in a way that agrees with what we already believe about it, rather than taking Scripture at its word and adjusting our thinking to align with what the Bible itself says.   Do we really want to be a people who gather to themselves teachers who will tell us what our itching ears want to hear? Or do we think that the better idea is to be like the Bereans, and search the Scriptures daily to see whether these things be so?
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