Tribulation is not Wrath

[Daniel 11:36]

"Prove it using scripture and maybe I might"

 

You will not .... but it is true [Revelation 6:12-17]

The above is the beginning of the coming tribulation period for 7 years [Revelation 8 thru 19]

Edited June 19, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[JoeChan82]

Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Yes, the people against whom the wrath is come do see for themselves that they need to hide. No question.  But just because they see the wrath is upon them doesn't mean that the wrath begins on or during the 6th seal.  It isn't until Revelation 11 that 24 elders declare the wrath has come.

Revelation 11:15-18 And the seventh angel sounded; … The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. … 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 

I think the distinction is clear enough. The enemies of God see it coming at the 6th seal, but heaven declares it in Revelation 11 when the seventh angel sounds. I think both groups are talking about the same wrath.  So when does the wrath begin? I say it begins at the 7th trump and you say at the 6th seal, but we both use scripture to prove our points. I have read enough of these topics to know this won't persuade everybody.

[JoeCanada]

30 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Prove it using scripture and maybe I might"

 

You will not .... but it is true [Revelation 6:12-17]

The above is the beginning of the coming tribulation period for 7 years [Revelation 8 thru 19]

Rev 6:12-17.....

² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Math 24:29.......²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Joel 2:30-31.....

³⁰ And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Do you not see this as the same event?

And it is AFTER the great tribulation of those days......AFTER!

What you are equating to the Tribulation is the Day of the Lord, the Day of His Wrath.......which comes AFTER the Tribulation

[Daniel 11:36]

"Do you not see this as the same event?"

 

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come

 

The period of the Lord's wrath and judgment will play out during 70th week decreed for Israel

Your interpretation of what Joel tells is wrong

He speaks about the overall period of judgment that is coming .... the 70th week decreed for Israel

 

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[WilliamL]

12 minutes ago, JoeChan82 said:

Revelation 6:15-17 ...17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Yes, the people against whom the wrath is come do see for themselves that they need to hide. No question.  But just because they see the wrath is upon them doesn't mean that the wrath begins on or during the 6th seal.  It isn't until Revelation 11 that 24 elders declare the wrath has come.

Revelation 11:15-18 And the seventh angel sounded; …  18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, ...

I think the distinction is clear enough. The enemies of God see it coming at the 6th seal, but heaven declares it in Revelation 11 when the seventh angel sounds. I think both groups are talking about the same wrath.  So when does the wrath begin? I say it begins at the 7th trump and you say at the 6th seal, but we both use scripture to prove our points. I have read enough of these topics to know this won't persuade everybody.

Both of the red highlighted verbs are in the Greek aorist tense, generally translated as simple past tense: "thy/his wrath came..."

In Rev. 6:17, the heavens have been opened and the Revelation of God's Face has occurred, to be seen by everyone, living and dead. This is the fulfillment of Jesus' words to the High Priest, which caused Him to be condemned:

Matt. 26:64 ... "I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power [God], and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

So -- heaven is opened, along with everyone's spiritual sight. ("...every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him," 1:7)  All see the Son and the Father. Then they see the Son coming on the clouds of heaven to catch up his own.  All the while that the secrets of every heart are revealed, so that the wicked flee and hide themselves from the exposure of their spiritual nakedness. At the 6th Seal.

The Wrath of God begins with just this exposure of God sitting upon His heavenly throne in Divine Judgment, which Judgment takes place over the period of the Trumpets (= the judgment of Israel, aka the "time of Jacob's Trouble," Jer. 30:7), and then the Bowls (= the subsequent judgment of the heathen nations).

"Thy wrath came" in 11:18 is merely a flashback to 6:17: "The nations were enraged [aorist verb, simple past tense]" denotes the lawless devices of the heathen nations during the Great Tribulation, just prior to the Revelation of the Father and Son at the 6th Seal.

[Behold]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I've heard some people say that tribulation is the same thing as wrath and that the words can be used interchangeably.  However, after doing some digging, I've found out that such a claim is simply not true.  Here are the Greek words for each and the definitions:

~~~~~

Tribulation

θλῖψις thlîpsis - pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Wrath

ὀργή orgḗ - properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

~~~~~

The words tribulation and wrath come from different Greek words and have different meanings.  I couldn't find anywhere that the Greek word for tribulation is ever translated wrath, or vice-versa.  If they are the same words, or similar, you'd expect some overlap in the translations or semantics but I couldn't find any.

I've yet to hear a rational explanation as to why they mean the same thing when they're clearly different.  Granted, both tribulation and wrath are similar in that they are unpleasant when experienced but does that make them the same?  No.  Is a hurricane the same thing as a tsunami because they both cause flooding?

I would encourage those who are interested in end time prophecy to make this distinction that scripture makes between these two words in order to get a clearer understanding of the things to come.  Those who believe that tribulation and wrath are the same thing, can you explain why?  They certainly look distinctly different to me, but maybe I've missed something.

 

You should do a deep study of 2nd Thessalonians 1:8 regarding what you posted and see if it agrees.

 

 

[JoeCanada]

19 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Do you not see this as the same event?"

 

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come

 

The period of the Lord's wrath and judgment will play out during 70th week decreed for Israel

Your interpretation of what Joel tells is wrong

He speaks about the overall period of judgment that is coming .... the 70th week decreed for Israel

 

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

 

I never offered an interpretation of Joel.

I simply compared Joel with Mathew with Rev......all showing the same event. And Mathew says this event occurs AFTER the tribulation. 

[Diaste]

Great topic.

I believe many will believe only when they finally see.

The same arguments have been advanced again and again to no avail. 

Maybe when the covenant is confirmed and the beast rises many will see things differently. 

[Diaste]

27 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

He's pointing out that after the 6th seal, everything that happens during the Tribulation is God's wrath, directly.  You can no longer call it "tribulation" at that point, because it is no longer just an unsaved world oppressing believers.  You have God pouring out His wrath on the Earth from the 6th seal on.  You can debate whether the first 5 seals are God's direct wrath or not.  You cannot make the same argument after the 6th seal is broken.  The Trumpet and Bowl judgments are directly God's wrath.  Post-tribbers act like they don't have Revelation 6:16-17 in their Bible.  Or any of the other verses about the Trumpet judgments and Bowl judgments that call it God's wrath.

No one is saying the 6th seal isn't the portent of God's wrath or that whatever comes after the 6th seal isn't God's wrath. We all agree it is.

What comes before wrath begins is not wrath, or it would have been said to be wrath,  at the 1st seal perhaps. Or the 2nd. The wrath of God is not until the 6th seal, deep into the end of the age.

Before this is GT. Not wrath. We will not see wrath. We will see whatever comes before.

[Last Daze]

28 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

He's pointing out that after the 6th seal, everything that happens during the Tribulation is God's wrath, directly.  You can no longer call it "tribulation" at that point, because it is no longer just an unsaved world oppressing believers.  You have God pouring out His wrath on the Earth from the 6th seal on.  You can debate whether the first 5 seals are God's direct wrath or not.  You cannot make the same argument after the 6th seal is broken.  The Trumpet and Bowl judgments are directly God's wrath.  Post-tribbers act like they don't have Revelation 6:16-17 in their Bible.  Or any of the other verses about the Trumpet judgments and Bowl judgments that call it God's wrath.

What the sixth seal indicates is that the time of  God's wrath has arrived.  It does not say that everything thereafter must be the wrath of God.  Neither is there any reason to think that tribulation and the wrath of God are mutually exclusive.  They aren't.  They can, and do, run concurrently as Daniel 12 indicates.

There is a difference between judgment and wrath.  Judgment is a determination, usually with a consequence.  Wrath is anger.  What follows the sixth seal?  The seven plagues of the seventh seal.  The seven plagues (trumpets/bowls) are God's judgment against those who worship the man of sin.  God's wrath is poured out on those who refuse to yield to His judgment and repent and are contained in the bowls.

• Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:7