The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[iamlamad]

Just now, JoeChan82 said:

Hey, I found it!

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Right! Written by Paul himself! (Well, maybe someone else wrote but Paul dictated.)

[Last Daze]

19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

After 2 or so BC the Rock became Jesus Christ. Before that He - Jesus -  was THE WORD, or the second person of the trinity.  In fact, He was not really "the Christ" until He was anointed by the Holy Spirit.  Of course "Christ" was mentioned before He was anointed, but these were written after He had gone back to heaven.  "Christ" comes from the root word "chriō"  Which means "anointed" or "to anoint." We also read from Strongs:  "consecrating Jesus to the Messianic office, and furnishing him with powers necessary for its administration..."

Acts 10:38

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

 

WHEN? When did this happen? When He was baptized in water. After the fact, we can look back as Paul did and know that the Rock was Christ Jesus. 

 

I'm glad that you realize that Jesus was there with the congregation in the desert.  Good start.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Let's have a redo:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (The dark day; the day of destruction, the day of wrath and fierce anger, the day of vengeance: the DAY OF THE LORD [the day they thought they were IN!])will not come until the rebellion occurs(Apostasia - the departing [the gathering]) and the man of lawlessness is revealed(when he enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews!),  And now you know what is holding (Restraining) him(Him, being the man of sin who will turn into the Beast of Rev. 13) back, so that he(the man of sin revealed as the Beast) may be revealed at the proper time (The proper time being after what comes FIRST: the departing or gathering of the church that is currently restraining or holding back this revealing)."

Of course that day is the day of the Lord as you described above. You know full well 'apostasia' is a revolt, a rebellion and not a departure from one physical place, to another physical place. 

The way you are interpreting would have the beast restraining himself. And it's not a who that restrains, it's a what, that 'what' being the rebellion and the revealing which hold back Jesus from returning and the gathering.

Oh, so the church is holding back the beast? Or just evil in general? Not doing so well.

In fact the beast is coming for the church, before the return of Jesus and the gathering. 

This is the uncomfortable truth. 

[douggg]

On 6/21/2018 at 3:37 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write (graphó) to you,

In the previous chapter, 1Thessalonians4:15-18, Paul had just finished revealing the mystery of the rapture/resurrection.     The rapture/resurrection is the redemption of the bodies of the living at the time, and the redemption of the bodies of the dead in Christ.

In 1Thessalonians5, Paul then explains when the rapture/resurrection takes place.   The rapture/resurrection is in 1Thesslalonians5:9-11.   " Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

Paul tied the rapture/resurrection to be before the Day of the Lord, which will overtake the world at a time when the world is saying "peace and safety".    And them saying peace and safety will not escape - Paul wrote.

In Luke 21:34-36, Jesus addressed that the world would be overtaken the same way, and to "escape", he said to be watching, and praying to be worthy to escape and stand before him - which would be the rapture.

The issue therefore becomes why would the world be saying peace and safety?    It will be because the world will be thinking it is living in the messianic age at the time, and that the little horn person coming into the middle east following Gog/Magog, is the messiah - and him anointed the King of Israel, illegitimate, by the false prophet.     Which is what actually makes the person -- the Antichrist.

When said person, the perceived messiah at the time, betrays the Jewish people, goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God, in 2Thessalonians2:4, that is what triggers the Day of the Lord beginning years.   

So the key is to be watching, as Jesus said to do.     Watching for developments in the fourth kingdom, Daniel 7:23-24, of the rise of the ten leaders in that kingdom, with one leader over them.     Which, imo, we are very close.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by douggg

[iamlamad]

53 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Of course that day is the day of the Lord as you described above. You know full well 'apostasia' is a revolt, a rebellion and not a departure from one physical place, to another physical place. 

The way you are interpreting would have the beast restraining himself. And it's not a who that restrains, it's a what, that 'what' being the rebellion and the revealing which hold back Jesus from returning and the gathering.

Oh, so the church is holding back the beast? Or just evil in general? Not doing so well.

In fact the beast is coming for the church, before the return of Jesus and the gathering. 

This is the uncomfortable truth. 

I hope you know that in most if not all languages, a single word - or even a compound word can have more than one meaning.  It is that way with Paul's use of "Apostasia."  The truth is, a falling away (from what Paul did not specify) simply does not fit Paul's context. 

It is another truth: evil cannot restrain evil! If it was up to the devil, he could never restrain himself. A falling away (from what?) cannot be a restraining  force that is restraining an evil force, that is the man of sin. Good can restrain evil, but evil cannot restrain evil.

If you just follow Paul's text with no preconceptions, you will discover that in 3B the man of sin IS REVEALED, showing us that in 3A the restraining force was "taken out of the way."  How can you make a parallel of falling away, which is done on a individual basis, with "taken out of the way" which is done by an outside force? Sorry, but this is oranges compared to a horse shoe - they have nothing in common.  

However, if you use this compound word "apostasia" as it was meant to be used, and the way Paul used it, it makes perfect sense: "apo" means a part of a whole [group] removed and taken to a different location - and this is done so fast, the rest of the group appears stationary or standing still. Srong's has it right: his definition fits what Paul was saying perfectly. 

The THEME of the passage is the rapture of the church. But these people it seems thought they had MISSED the pretrib rapture and were now in the Day of the Lord. 

Paul's argument is, "no, you cannot be in the DAY because before that DAY (the evil day of destruction) comes, there most FIRST be a departing. AFTER the departing you will see the man of sin revealed. Then all will know the DAY has arrived and you are IN IT."  Paul did not specify right there who or what was doing this departing. But IN CONTEXT his meaning is clear: the church must be "taken out of the way" as the restrainer so that the man of sin will be revealed at the proper time. The truth then is that they had NOT missed the rapture! And they were NOT in the Day of the Lord. 

You go ahead and watch for the Beast. But the church will be watching for HIM - Jesus' coming. I don't see how you can watch for both: it will be one or the other. 

The beast restraining himself? How do you get such nonsense? It is the Holy Spirit, working through the church that is restraining or holding back the revealing of the man of sin. When the church is "taken out of the way," then the Holy Spirit will have no believers on earth to work through. So the man of sin will then be revealed. When he is, all will know the DAY has come. 

The theme of this post is that it will be impossible for one to be watching for the beast and Our Lord at the same time. It will be one or the other.

Edited August 16, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

53 minutes ago, douggg said:

In the previous chapter, 1Thessalonians4:15-18, Paul had just finished revealing the mystery of the rapture/resurrection.     The rapture/resurrection is the redemption of the bodies of the living at the time, and the redemption of the bodies of the dead in Christ.

In 1Thessalonians5, Paul then explains when the rapture/resurrection takes place.   The rapture/resurrection is in 1Thesslalonians5:9-11.   " Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

Paul tied the rapture/resurrection to be before the Day of the Lord, which will overtake the world at a time when the world is saying "peace and safety".    And them saying peace and safety will not escape - Paul wrote.

In Luke 21:34-36, Jesus addressed that the world would be overtaken the same way, and to "escape", he said to be watching, and praying to be worthy to escape and stand before him - which would be the rapture.

The issue therefore becomes why would the world be saying peace and safety?    It will be because the world will be thinking it is living in the messianic age at the time, and that the little horn person coming into the middle east following Gog/Magog, is the messiah - and him anointed the King of Israel, illegitimate, by the false prophet.     Which is what actually makes the person -- the Antichrist.

When said person, the perceived messiah at the time, betrays the Jewish people, goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God, in 2Thessalonians2:4, that is what triggers the Day of the Lord beginning years.   

So the key is to be watching, as Jesus said to do.     Watching for developments in the fourth kingdom, Daniel 7:23-24, of the rise of the ten leaders in that kingdom, with one leader over them.     Which, imo, we are very close.

 

 

I will be watching for JESUS! Perhaps He will come on the Feast of Trumpets THIS YEAR!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

I'm glad that you realize that Jesus was there with the congregation in the desert.  Good start.

Sorry, you misunderstood. Jesus was NOT there. Jesus as a man did not exist then. However, the WORD was back there!

[Last Daze]

20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, you misunderstood. Jesus was NOT there. Jesus as a man did not exist then. However, the WORD was back there!

Does the form change the essence?

[JoeCanada]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is the Holy Spirit, working through the church that is restraining or holding back the revealing of the man of sin. When the church is "taken out of the way," then the Holy Spirit will have no believers on earth to work through. So the man of sin will then be revealed. When he is, all will know the DAY has come. 

 

Hi iamlamad....

A person should not be so dogmatic in their assumption of "who or what"  the restrainer is.

There have been many guesses as to 'who or what' the restrainer is.

Scripture just doesn't tell us.

 

 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad....

A person should not be so dogmatic in their assumption of "who or what"  the restrainer is.

There have been many guesses as to 'who or what' the restrainer is.

Scripture just doesn't tell us.

 

 

 

Basically, that's the bottom line.   It is not stated directly in the text of those verses.

I believe the restrainer is Jesus, because all power in heaven and in the earth has been given to him, Matthew 28:18.    And him being taken out of the way, is a reference to the metaphorical body of Christ, the body of believers in Jesus - which would be the rapture.

Edited August 16, 2018 by douggg