What Paul Says

[LadyKay]

9 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

I know what they believe.  I attended Church of the Nazarene in Kingman, AZ. from 1982 thru 1991 and Church of the Nazarene here in St. Joseph from 1993 thru 2002.

That is wonderful. See we are not so different. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

There is really no question ladies, that we are to be under a covering of authority, and not usurp it over men.  As others have pointed out the reasons go very far back to the fall in the Garden and nothing to do with culture.  This is for our protection and the good of the church.  Doesn't mean we are spiritually inferior.....proverbs 31 says a virtuous woman is worth more than rubies.......but we are weaker through the flesh and more vulnerable in certain ways.  And that means the men need to honour us as such too, and not abuse their authority or downtrod or patronize us like children.  Nobody is getting the short end of the stick in these things.  We might discuss or disagree over how much we can participate in meetings etc, but it's the male leadership who will ultimately decide and hopefully discern when a woman is being led by the Holy Spirit to share what is given her to share.

Esther is a wonderful example of a Godly woman, giving respect and honour to her husband the king as she approached him reverently with a very serious problem and request.  She didn't approach him with an attitude of,  'you dimwit, how could you not see what Haman was up to'....why, because that knowledge had been given to her by the Lord, so to speak, not to her husband directly, and then she was to share it with him.  That's how God works, everyone having a part at different times according to His will.  Her husband's part was to then discern the truth of what she was saying and act.  And Abigail is another example, her Godliness and intercession coming forth in a different way, acting for the honour and the good of her husband and household.

My dear sisters in the Lord, we DO have a part in the kingdom of God on earth, but it must be done under authority and with the right attitude of Godly  submission to that authority.  And over the years I discovered too that when I submit myself to my husband as unto the Lord (same sense as, 'whatsoever you do, do as unto the Lord'), trusting in God, then the Lord is able to use my husband in my life according to His will, and work it all together for my good.  These things are not given for anybody's harm, but for good.

 

Much wisdom displayed here...... A man is to love his wife as Christ loves His Church... He is to treat her like GOLD......no woman should have trouble submitting to a man like that.....personally my wife and I “ fight” constantly.....I will tell her to “ shut up” or pretend to slap her when she is on the phone..... all to make the other laugh.....she always gives it back, usually outdoing with her “ hatred” she likes to feel my pulse to see if I am dead so she can get her money .We have a blast and love each other immensely.Yes, I know it is weird but it works for us.

[Heleadethme]

57 minutes ago, other one said:

what pastor these days has "authority" over anyone...????

Speaking of spiritual authority....leadership and teaching with authority.  It's not in a sense of lording it over others as the world practices authority.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

All I remember about the Nazarenes from my early school days is that they were never allowed to go swimming at the public swimming place.Nice enough people, but they seemed a little weird when I was young.

[LadyKay]

7 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

All I remember about the Nazarenes from my early school days is that they were never allowed to go swimming at the public swimming place.Nice enough people, but they seemed a little weird when I was young.

We can go swimming now. ?‍♂️

[other one]

2 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Speaking of spiritual authority....leadership and teaching with authority.  It's not in a sense of lording it over others as the world practices authority.

I don't know anyone outside the Catholic Church that feels anyone in the church has authority over them.

 

[other one]

8 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

People with no wish to submit to authority fail to recognize authority.

BS

[enoob57]

Matt 23:12

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
KJV
 

[Faithbuilders]

16 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

How can it be fine for a woman to be in authority over men....when Paul clearly said that women were not to teach or usurp authority over men.  BECAUSE woman being deceived by the serpent, was in the transgression.  I personally believe a woman can get a little preach on (by the Holy Spirit), as long as isn't done in the sense of pastoring authority.  Teaching is another matter from what I understand....the teaching of doctrine etc.....is the purview of male leadership.

That word for men, in the Greek means husband. She can't have authority over her own husband!

Edited December 1, 2018 by Faithbuilders

[Heleadethme]

15 hours ago, maryjayne said:

I firmly believe in Godly headship. When my now husband and I were arranging our marriage, the pastor talked to us about our vows. I said I was not going to say i would obey. No way. Never

 

There was a free and frank discussion (great British understatement) and the pastor refused to conduct the wedding if i didn't agree. He used scripture, but i was coming from a place of having been raised in a very hardline cult, and even when my first husband beat me, the elders said i had to obey and take it, and it wasnt beating, it was biblical chastisement - you get the sort of mentality I mean.

This pastor talked me through this and told me how wrong that cult was, and showed me what is meant by the love of Jesus an headship. And that my now husband loved me and obedience would be easy, as he would never ask me to do anything unloving.

That pastor was right. I wonder though how much rebelling against male headship is due to some bad experiences the majority of women have from the men in their lives, including religious leaders? 

I am not condoning it, but looking at the reasons behind it.

I'm so sorry for all that you've endured, maryJayne.  It's unfortunately all too common a story in Christendom.....churches lacking Godly wisdom and biblical instruction in how to handle situations like that.  I hate religiosity so much...when Christianity goes awry it becomes an evil machine.

And I agree it's often because of what women have suffered at the hands of men, or seen other women suffer, that is often the reason behind feminism or being unwilling to be under authority.  (Though even beyond that it's an attitude that can take on a life of its own even where there has been no hurt or injustice.)   It's also because of a very wrong and religious understanding of what submissiveness and authority entail.

The leaders and men at your church should have taken steps first of all to ensure your safety....you being their sister, daughter, mother in the Lord.  Separation from one's spouse is certainly permissible.  Then they should have approached your husband in the manner instructed in the bible....first with one witness, then two or three, then the whole church, if he still did not repent of his sin against you.  And then disfellowship and handing his flesh over to Satan, for his spiritual good, as per scripture if he still did not amend his ways.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Heleadethme