What Went Wrong?

[thomas t]

Hi everyone,

a moderator told me that new Christians and even young teens who are not established in our faith were being confused if not led astray by some of those unbelievers. She said this with regard to the discussions in the hidden sections.

But I think this is also true for the discussions we had in the main sections and this, I'm afraid, is one of the main reasons for why they are banned from posting in a visible way. (see George's comment here)

If there was always a compelling answer provided by us to the questions the unbelievers come up with, then there wouldn't be any confusion, I think.

Jesus answered any question with flying colours. Regardless of how nasty the question was.

So why can't we do the same with the questions of our non-believers/doubters. Not knowing the answer ... I thought it might be best if everybody could think and come up with one argument coming from the theist side that didn't convince anyone.

If we can't convince our teenagers we have a problem. Whether or not we ban the nonbelievers from posting here, sooner or later the teenagers will encounter them anyways in their lives. We can't just go ahead and create a parallel universe for our teens in which they would never be in touch with any doubters, I think. So, if non-believers can "successfully" confuse us, our arguments are too weak. At least part of them, I think.

So I would like to begin a debate presenting one argument stemming from the believing side that didn't impress, in my opinion. Maybe you know of others, too.

 

Atheists have faith. In this discussion, for example, this argument usually proposed by believers just didn't work out.

The atheist simply states he didn't have no faith, and then usually it is over for the Christian apologist. Honestly, I saw many debates on this, and the atheist's position always was more compelling than the believer's. And I think this argument from the theist side almost always turned into a far too complicated stance. We should keep things simple, I think.

Why are Christians so eager to convince atheists that they believe?

Is belief a shame?

No it is not, I think. I would suggest to let them say they behave rationally. The Christian God, as I see it, cannot be discovered by reason alone, for it says:

And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

Mark 12:30. Reason is but one fourth required to get faith, I think.

Regards,

Thomas

Edited April 4, 2019 by thomas t
clarity

[Who me]

Hidden section? No idea what that is. Why is there a 'hidden section'?

 

As for Christians being confused etc.

 

Forums are not the place to learn about Christianity. They should take there questions, querries and doubts to their minister and ask him to explain.

[thomas t]

Hi Who me,

as Willa explained here, the sections where non-believers can post are hidden lest the weak in faith go astray.

29 minutes ago, Who me said:

Forums are not the place to learn about Christianity.

Agreed.

Imagine you were a non-believer living somewhere in central Swizzerland. Next good church in Zurich, it's a one our car drive maybe. Or consider Belgium, are there evangelical churches? No, there are almost none, I believe. Maybe in Brussels one or two. So I would say, in general forums are a second-best solution to learn something about Christianity. But not if you live in areas where you can't find churches around you.

Before I converted, I was very much afraid that I would end up in the hands of cults... maybe other people have these problems, too. My mother always told me about strange cults everywhere. So I used to be really unsettled because of this.

Thomas

 

[OneLight]

@thomas t

You are correct in that we should have an answer for any question pertaining to scripture, yet, the problem was found that those who are willing to correct false teaching or misleading statements/questions are not always online when they are made, so no defense could be made, which left the weak in faith, new Christians and those searching still with misleading information. 

You had asked in another thread why there became a division on the site that separated believers with those who are not saved.  Over time, we all agreed that when a serious question was being asked, those who were not of the faith were answering and debating their non-belief theories with christian theories, loosing the OP's question in the mix of many posts/replies, in other words, flooding the thread with nonsense, so George decided to split the forum. 

In an ideal world of internet christian forums, your idea would be correct, any and all questions would be answered with scriptural correct responses.  Unfortunately, this is not the case, so precautions need to be in place.  You can even see that among those who are His, much debate and confusion can arise ... just look at the eschatology and prophecy forums ... who is right in those discussions?  Now, imagine if someone seeking answers had to also read and consider theories from someone who does not believe scripture.  It would be much harder and more misleading to throw lies into the discussion when trying to seek the truth.

I hope this helps.

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom all,

This is a tricky topic and one that is close to the heart of most.

I agree with @thomas t in one sense, as I think the doors should be open.  All should be accepted in.  I love your heart for this my brother. May Yahweh bless you with a ministry reaching the lost.  However,  I must admit that I also agree with @OneLight 's post, he has spoken wisely. Both of you are great assets to the forum.

As amazing as it would be to invite every non-believer into this forum, it can cause chaos.  Especially if Atheists want an opportunity to troll.  I have tried posting for myself a while back in an atheist forum and there was a lot of hate and mockery fired.  There was no logical or reasonable debate.  My post served mainly as fodder for those desparate to impress others.  You can see it here if you wish. Link

There is also another Christian forum which has a mix of believers and non-believers and that one seems to be quite messy and "shouty". So maybe Worthy has something special going on here...  That said, I strongly still stand against those who insult ALL non-believers, calling them "devils" and the like.  It's a disgusting attitude!  May Yahweh forgive their foolishness.

Anyway, perhaps a happy medium would be to keep the two forums, like we have now, but with believers given the opportunity to enter both freely and  non-believers only limited to one? I don't know. Personally, I think it may be best to drop the topic for now.  

Let's work with what Yah has blessed us with, keep the unity and focus our gifts on those who are present here, for His glory.

Love & Shalom

[other one]

Just a reminder that this is not a simple discussion board....    Worthy is a ministry that God has laid on the heart of George to accomplish something.   I don't think it is in anyone's best interests to question George's changes when the way things were were getting in the way of what he's attempting to do...    I've been here since 2003 and I have witnessed the problems that George is trying to fix.    While I may not like the way things are done today, I understand why they must be this way and stand behind George all the way.

 

[thomas t]

7 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Personally, I think it may be best to drop the topic for now.  

Hi Tzephanyahu,

thank you very much for your reminder with the encouraging words in it.

Yeah, it may be best to drop the issue for now. I'm still thinking about the linked thread in the other forum.

Just a little comment on what Alan has said...

Hi Alan thank you very much for your explanation that was helpful indeed. For a moderator that you used to be over the years, you must have some overview about what went wrong.

23 hours ago, OneLight said:

You had asked in another thread why there became a division on the site that separated believers with those who are not saved.  Over time, we all agreed that when a serious question was being asked, those who were not of the faith were answering and debating their non-belief theories with christian theories, loosing the OP's question in the mix of many posts/replies, in other words, flooding the thread with nonsense, so George decided to split the forum. 

+

4 hours ago, other one said:

I understand why they must be this way and stand behind George all the way.

Me too. This thread was an attempt to analyse what went wrong and to find the way back to discussing things with non-believers in a visable way. That was my point. Of course I understand what's behind the decision of making them invisible. Alan just described it. But one can be sad about it, as you say, and describing the tremendous cost of that decision. Rightly made though for the moment...

But Tzephanyahu said it's best to drop the issue for now, and that's what I'm doing now.

Regards,

Thomas

[ayin jade]

There are plenty of folks who are able to witness to atheists in a visible way on this forum even leaving things as they are. There are now 2 threads kicking against the goads about this policy. It is time to discuss it with george alone. 

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom Thomas, 

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

best to drop the issue for now

I respect a man who knows when to stand but even more when he knows when to sit.

But don't worry, a time will come for you to help many non-believers. I believe that. Prepare yourself. 

If I can feel your passion for the lost then how much more so the Father? He will surely have plans for you in and out of this forum, with your willingness. 

But whilst this forum is believers only (at least at the moment), don't forget us!  We need you too. The believers in here (including me) have plenty of need of edification, apologetic discussion, courage and wisdom in these times. I know you can be a big help for us, at least until the time that your work for the lost increases.

So I hope you don't feel too downhearted on this matter. You're still very much needed in here!

Love & Shalom 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Tzephanyahu

[thomas t]

Hi all,

don't want to discuss the rights and wrongs any more of putting the atheists into an invisible section for posting.

Just a few comments:

On 4/5/2019 at 10:53 AM, Tzephanyahu said:

. Link

ok, they were getting personal. But here Christians are also getting personal against atheists, we can still see the old threads and witness a couple of direct insults. As you said so often.

But the way in which some of the posters of your linked thread use smear words etc. indicates that you must have done something right ?.

At the same time, the postings from "our" atheists here on Worthy used to be rather polite, friendly, educated and funny most often, in my view.

Your link gives a very ineresting insight into the state of the debate in general, I think.

I think these resource pages in the style of your's are great when atheists keep saying they can't believe God because of science. Or anything in that sense. When you use them then: great.

The current problem I see on Worthy right now is that people come up claiming "great evidence" for creation... without having been asked to do so by the non-believing side.

Even if one Christian were to be right in what he or she says... then 2 other Christians come and join and post complete nonsense promoting some very own theories that are wrong, I think. At the same time, the Bible does not teach we should use more evidence to bolster our notion of creation to convince non-believers. In contrast, the Bible does dedicate great time in explaining Christians how to witness. Never said the evidence should be part of it.

Tzephanyahu I still didn't manage to go through you pages... these were just theoretical comments on the way we treat evidence for Creation.

 

And Tzephanyahu, thank you very much again for your very encouraging answer. I am more than glad to see you here!

I'm looking more than forward to reading more of your great apologetics.

Thomas