Identifying John as one of the two witnesses

[Revelation Man]

On 7/29/2019 at 1:25 PM, dhchristian said:

And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I purposely left out the verse numbers and the chapter break located in this passage, Because when read as one this passage point to John, the author of revelation being one of the two witnesses. Written in 90-95 ad, the book of Revelation was written well after the destruction of the temple in 70 ad. There was no temple for him to go and measure, meaning that he was transported in this vision to the future temple to measure it.

On the mount of transfiguration, the two witnesses seen there were Moses and Elijah, Most people see these two as the two witnesses of end times. But what they fail to see is what the two witnesses represent, that being the Law and the prophets. Both the law and the prophets pointed to Jesus. But the second time around the two witnesses will be the prophets and the New Testament, Pointing Jesus as the King of kings and Lord of lords, meaning Elijah and John The apostle will be the two witnesses. Think about this, Jesus said of John, answering Peter's question about John and his means of death, said; "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (John 21:22)

Is this proof that John is one of the two witnesses? No, But it certainly does sound like he will be one of them, and representing the New testament in Christ Jesus, Just like Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the prophets. What are your thought on the identity of the two witnesses, and the basis for this understanding? 

  

I see Moses the Lawgiver and Elijah the man most connected from the Old Testament to the Holy Spirit. But asides to that, let's look at the Two-witnesses chapter or Revelation 11 with an eye towards its reasoning/meaning. What is being Measured AND WHY ? It's not actually the Temple that is being measured, we all know those Measurements or they will be apparent at the time, the plans/blueprints are self evident. So what is being measured ?

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

God via the Angel is saying to John to take MEASURE of SOMETHING, and that something is the Jews who worship the real God {and who will soon understand God to be Jesus} and the Gentiles who tread under foot the Holy City. It's basically the Two-witnesses....GET THIS...Marching orders or directives as per who they are to Witness unto. Well who worships in the Temple of God and at the Altar ? Jews of course, so they are to TAKE MEASURE {Witness to} of the Jews who are of the Temple and are the Bride of God. But the Gentiles {OUTER COURT} don't take Measure or Witness unto them at this time. The Measurement of the Two-witnesses is their testimony, that is why the Jews and Gentiles are differentiated here, you can't measure people with a Yardstick/Reed so it means something entirely different. God is using the Temple/Altar in order to show the Two-witnesses calling.

REMEMBER, chapter 11 is the Two-witnesses chapter. 

Rev. 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

John is barely known by today's Jews, God wants to floor them, so He will send back Elijah and Moses, IMHO. They will witness to the Jews in Jerusalem, but of course eventually the whole world will see their feats on national TV. I mean they pray for no rain and no rain comes for months, they pray for plagues and they come, if someone tries to kill them THEY DIE !! Talk about made for TV....Reality TV !! 

[dhchristian]

38 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

There is not a single verse in Revelation that speaks of an earthly temple. From the blog post The Temple-Sanctuary and Court of Revelation 11:

Key here being revelation I would assume? Obviously Daniel 9:24-27 implies a temple, a material one on this earth, as does Psalm 127:1, and Zech. 14, Ezekiel 40-45 which are the millennial temple. So Where does the abomination get set up? On Mt. Moriah, it is there now, and from the time the daily was taken away599BC, to when this abomination was SET UP was 1290 years691/2AD. But the exile began some 6 years before then when Ezekiel was exiled, in 605 bc, And Daniel in that second wave of exile in 599bc, when the templewaslooted and the vessels including the menorah taken to Babylon, thus putting an end to daily sacrifice. From the time construction began on that abomination (687/688ad) to when Israel became a nation is 1260 years, and from the time 1335 years points to 2027. Which coincidentally is the start of the third millennial day from when John the Baptist preached the Gospel of the Kingdom for the first time (26/27ad), putting an end to the "Law and the Prophets" (Luke 16:16), and when Jesus said in three days I will rebuild this temple (referring to his death...) Which is also the 79th year after Israel became a nation as Per Psalm 90:10 and a generation being either 70 or 80 years, and exactly 80 years from the original vote in the U.N. That made Israel a nation in 1947.

If Daniel was accurate with his 2300 days, and his 70/7's, He will likely be as accurate with his other days as well, having a track record of super accurate prophecies. So much so that sceptics always question the veracity and truth of his writings.

The Abomination is a Building, an action done by the Beast in that building, and a time of abominations.

And then there is Ezekiel's vision of the temple which occurred in 573BC (Eze. 40:1). Add 50x 12 Jubilee years to this and you end up at 27Ad, and 50x 112 and you end up at 2027 ad. The start of the Millennial Jubille???

 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. (Psalm 127:1)

 

[Mary8]

29 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Key here being revelation I would assume? Obviously Daniel 9:24-27 implies a temple, a material one on this earth, as does Psalm 127:1, and Zech. 14, Ezekiel 40-45 which are the millennial temple. So Where does the abomination get set up? On Mt. Moriah, it is there now, and from the time the daily was taken away599BC, to when this abomination was SET UP was 1290 years691/2AD. But the exile began some 6 years before then when Ezekiel was exiled, in 605 bc, And Daniel in that second wave of exile in 599bc, when the templewaslooted and the vessels including the menorah taken to Babylon, thus putting an end to daily sacrifice. From the time construction began on that abomination (687/688ad) to when Israel became a nation is 1260 years, and from the time 1335 years points to 2027. Which coincidentally is the start of the third millennial day from when John the Baptist preached the Gospel of the Kingdom for the first time (26/27ad), putting an end to the "Law and the Prophets" (Luke 16:16), and when Jesus said in three days I will rebuild this temple (referring to his death...) Which is also the 79th year after Israel became a nation as Per Psalm 90:10 and a generation being either 70 or 80 years, and exactly 80 years from the original vote in the U.N. That made Israel a nation in 1947.

If Daniel was accurate with his 2300 days, and his 70/7's, He will likely be as accurate with his other days as well, having a track record of super accurate prophecies. So much so that sceptics always question the veracity and truth of his writings.

The Abomination is a Building, an action done by the Beast in that building, and a time of abominations.

And then there is Ezekiel's vision of the temple which occurred in 573BC (Eze. 40:1). Add 50x 12 Jubilee years to this and you end up at 27Ad, and 50x 112 and you end up at 2027 ad. The start of the Millennial Jubille???

 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. (Psalm 127:1)

 

I printed this to study more carefully.   That led to a little checking, and a source mentioned also:

Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand:) 16 then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

[missmuffet]

Nope, don't see John as one of the two witnesses. 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

Nope, don't see John as one of the two witnesses. 

Who then do you see them as, and why have you ruled John out? Or are you going to just sit on your tuffet?  

Edited July 31, 2019 by dhchristian

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 10:11 And he {alt. they} said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”

I doubt if this has been fulfilled as of yet.

 

At the time that verse was uttered the Revelation given to John was not finished yet as many chapters hv yet to b revealed to John   but now It had been fulfilled in the completed book of Revelation given to us as nations.

Edited August 1, 2019 by R. Hartono

[missmuffet]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Who then do you see them as, and why have you ruled John out? Or are you going to just sit on your tuffet?  

I don't see them as anyone because the Bible is silent on who they are. But God knows. If I had to speculate I would go with Enoch and Elijah. 

[George]

6 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Mary, you should review your interpretation. In the millennial kingdom there will not be any millennial temple.  

The passage you referred to is AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment.  Chapter 20.

Chapter 21 -- New Heaven and a New Earth ... where there is no Temple.

 

[Marilyn C]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 3:55 AM, dhchristian said:

 Just like Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the prophets. What are your thought on the identity of the two witnesses, and the basis for this understanding? 

  

Hi dhchristian,

I believe the 2 witnesses are Moses and Elijah because God`s word tells us so. Now to be a witness they would need to have witnessed something. 

They witnessed Christ`s transfiguration where He told them of His soon departure from the earth. They were also at the tomb & witnessed Christ`s resurrection, & later ascension into glory.

    Mount Transfiguration -  `behold 2 men talked with Him (Christ), who were Moses & Elijah,....`(Luke 9: 30)                                 

    The Tomb -  `behold, 2 men stood by them in shining garments.`  (Luke 24: 4)

     The Ascension -  `while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, Behold, 2 men stood by them in white apparel,`  (Acts 1: 10)

                                                 

Thus we see these same 2 men now appearing to Israel during the second half of the tribulation witnessing of Christ, not only as their soon coming King but also as their High Priest, the one who gave His life for them, & arose victorious over sin & death.

Marilyn.

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I believe the 2 witnesses are Moses and Elijah because God`s word tells us so.

Hi Marilyn, are you sure you don't mean that God's word "indicates" it (not tells us) ?  

I happen to agree with your conclusion, that imo, the two witnesses are likely Elijah and Moses.    But God's word does not "tell" us, as Mose and Elijah is not directly named the two witnesses in Revelation 11.      God did not speak and say the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.    We are drawing a conclusion because of our rationale.