Christ Or An Angel?

[Daniel Marsh]

Joshua 5:14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
14 The man answered, “I am not an enemy. I am the commander of the Lord’s army. I have just now come to you.”

Then Joshua bowed his face to the ground to show respect and said, “I am your servant. Does my master have a command for me?”

[Justin Adams]

On 8/20/2019 at 1:36 AM, ReneeIW said:

Anyone know how these verses are interpreted in Judaism? Obviously they don’t believe it’s the Lord Jesus but they also have to recognize that Jews were forbidden to bow down and worship anyone but God. So who do they say Joshua is worshipping?

Ahh. Up until AD 200 the Hebrews recognized the two members of the Godhead. This binitarian idea was well known to the Hebrews. Their theology recognized 'the two powers'. But by 200 AD they had to rewrite a lot of their theology due to Christianity. There are so many references to two in the Tanakh, that you would have to be a blind Hebrew scholar not to see it.

[Justin Adams]

"Behold, I send My Angel before you. My Name is in Him. (haShem). Obey Him for He will not pardon your offences". The 'son of man' is seen often as a physical being in the Tanakh. Read Jeremiah One very carefully, and the burning bush episode along with Gideon's interaction. Definitely Yahweh and The ONLY Unique One are present. (monogenes)

Edited October 8, 2019 by Justin Adams

[Heleadethme]

17 hours ago, DustyRoad said:

I find myself agreeing with @Justin Adams for the most part but I think it's important for us all to recognize that some things are difficult for our feeble minds to comprehend. We only perceive things darkly: let's keep that in mind because God is incomprehensible. Unless the Lord reveals himself to us we would be lost to the darkness of this world and the sinfulness of flesh. There are times when an angel might very well be one of us.


Many years ago when I followed the calling of God I was led to a man who preached the Gospel to me. Neither he or I had any way of knowing what lie ahead because God did not reveal this to either one of us: would he had done things differently if he knew how far I had to go? That I would fall away for decades? That I would nearly lose my life to sinful rebellion?

Such considerations are moot, of course. I believed and was baptized in water, joining a group of over a hundred people living together for the glory of Christ. I witnessed many wonders and miracles in their midst and lived with them for a time … but my struggles soon became apparent to all. I wasn't like the others because I struggled in vain against this flesh. I was fading while they were flourishing...

During those days I was greatly troubled, hiding myself away in the wilderness.  My despair and shame knew no limits and I wondered what the Lord thought about me: surely I was a failure in God's eyes. I failed at life and failed at serving him and knew that eventually, I would have no choice but to leave the company of these people I loved so dearly. I kept this locked away and never let the others know … but of course the Lord knew. God knows all things.

During one such day of brooding I was making my way to my lodging during sunset when another one of those miracles occurred: out of the blue God spoke to me, saying he was sending his angel. Less than a minute later I overheard the sound of someone approaching in the encroaching darkness. When I asked, "Who's there?," I heard the familiar voice of a brother whom I was close to. 

"God sent me out here to meet someone," he said. "He told me that I would find them here." He paused, and then withdrew a horn filled with oil. "You're the one I'm supposed to meet."

I kneeled while he anointed me with that oil. This wasn't the first time God did such a thing during those days following my water baptism. Others spoke words which proved to be prophetic, advising me that like the Son of Man, I wouldn't have a place to rest my head (Luke 9:58): I would wander without a home.  Every word spoken to me was true but no one knew about the fiery trial which waited many years down the road. The Lord in his mercy spared everyone from knowing about that beforehand. Had any of them known they might have physically restrained me from leaving when the time arrived. Despite the fact that I was struggling in vain against the flesh and wasn't born of Spirit (yet), many there were burdened for my sake. They prayed for me to make it.

They had no idea that over twenty would pass before their prayers were answered. I find it remarkable that God referred to a man as his angel. 

 

 

Rev 19:10

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:9

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

[ravindran]

On 8/19/2019 at 3:07 PM, ReneeIW said:

 What does the Church teach about these Scriptures?Is this Christ appearing in Old Testament times or an Angel?

 

1. 

Joshua 5:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

 

2.

Daniel 3:25 King James Version (KJV) 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Yes, I do believe these reference pre-incarnate Christ. The instance with Joshua is pretty obvious. Because he falls down and worships Angel of the Lord. We are not supposed to worship angels. Only Lord Jesus should be worshiped.

[Jayne]

18 minutes ago, ravindran said:

Yes, I do believe these reference pre-incarnate Christ. The instance with Joshua is pretty obvious. Because he falls down and worships Angel of the Lord. We are not supposed to worship angels. Only Lord Jesus should be worshiped.

While you are correct - here's just a side note.

People tried to worship angels and other people in the Bible. But they were stopped.  In the Revelation, John initially tried to worship the angel bringing the message.  John fell at his feet to worship, but the angel told him to get up that that was a servant like John.

Cornelius tries to worship Peter in Acts.  Peter tells him also to get up - that he is just a man.

So yes, I believe the Man with the sword that Joshua saw and spoke with was Jesus Christ because as Joshua fell and worshipped, he did not instruct Joshua to get up and stop.

[nobleseed]

hebrews refutes such belief as Jesus being an angel, the angel of the Lord was Melchizedek and he was later exceeded by Gabriel

Edited October 12, 2019 by nobleseed

[other one]

On 8/20/2019 at 9:23 AM, Jayne said:

There's LORD [all caps] - which is literally the name "Yehovah"  and then here's Lord  or lord [ just one or no caps]- which is just a generic word for "master".  It could be in reference to Christ as Lord or a servant having an earthly lord or master.

My "go to" Bibles - ESV, King James, NASB -  all have the two words written the way I have it quoted above.  So do several other Bibles, but not all Bibles.  I did a quick search on biblehub.com

Yes, this was Christ, if you will, but Joshua didn't know that.  We know that.

All he knew was that his man was the captain of the "LORD's" host.  Meaning the man who was in charge of the armies of God.

The Hebrew word "worship" merely means to "bow down".  When one worships God - by bowing of the body, mind, heart, or soul - it's treating him AS God, in holy reverence reserved for ONLY God.  

But Abraham "bowed" [exact same Hebrew word] to the three strangers coming to his tent.  Those were Christ and two angels.  He was merely showing the proper hospitality and etiquette.  Of course, he did come to find out exactly to whom he was bowing.

So, in essence.....

….Yes, this was Christ to whom Joshua was bowing.  We know that.  Joshua did not.  He calls the man "l"ord - lower case.  To me this means that while he did not know it was Christ, he DID know the man was from heaven and from God -  sent to him and Joshua knew that if this man commanded the armies of God in the supernatural realm, that he was to be a servant to this person and to do what he tells him to do.  

Joshua was not worshipping in the sense of treating someone as God and reverencing him as God.  He was showing respect to a messenger of God and indirectly showing reverence TO God.

To me, the evidence is that Joshua called him "lord" and not "Lord/LORD".

 

 

 

not disagreeing, but there are no capitol letters in Hebrew.   Those are simply put there by the translators.         They switched to the word Lord for every new translation that wants to be copywrited has to have a certain percentage of the words different than any other copywrited one.      One translation switched from Yahweh to Jehovah and later switched to Lord.