Righteous by (new) birth, not behavior

[Blood Bought 1953]

12 hours ago, JTC said:

I live by the entire Word of God. I don't pick & choose what to believe so I can have some fun.

 

That “ entire Word Of God” is divided into two Testaments......an Old Testament Of Law and a New Covenant Of Grace.....Jesus demands through the writing of his “ Secretary” Paul That a choice be made if you want to be saved.....does one want to try to be saved the Old Testament Way, trying and failing to obey the Laws Of Moses ? Or will One choose to believe the New Way— the Way That was kept secret for thousands of years until Jesus revealed it to Paul so that he could , in turn reveal it to us— The Gospel Of Grace, which is God’s latest revelation in regards as to how to be saved. Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead three days later.THAT is what Jesus says now , this side of the Cross in order to be saved.NO Old Testament Laws were mentioned, nor even hinted at. The “ entire Word Of God” has contained within it the 1500 year Age Of Law. Try to apply that Old , “ weak” Law now and one will “ fall from” the very Grace that could have saved him.The “ entire Word” doesn’t just “ sit there”. It is all leading to someplace—- that someplace is the Gospel Of Grace.....failure to REST in it makes one guilty of UNBELIEF .If one wants  to find a way to “ live”, the entire Bible teaches one had better live by RESTING IN THE GOSPEL Of GRACE  or stand before God in a state of “ disobedience and unbelief”. That “ entire Bible” contains Hebrews 3 and 4...... one best get familiar with it.God bless everybody in the understanding Of these things.There is no greater “ Fun” than Resting in the Gospel Of Paul.....1Cor15:1-4....

Edited November 15, 2019 by Blood Bought 1953

[JTC]

8 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

That “ entire Word Of God” is divided into two Testaments

Are you forgetting that I know you and what you believe? We don't agree and never will. I know what you believe but there's more to God than what you want to accept. All you want to do is argue, I do not. I'll leave you with this, it doesn't bother me that you don't believe what I do. But you seem to feel threatened by me and anyone else who refuses to agree with you. You just won't let this issue rest. Either every person here has to agree with you or... Listen to me, sinning is wrong and God doesn't want us living that way. The world lives like that, God's people should make every effort not to. If this threatens you, then you have problems. With God.

[Debp]

There seems to be two schools of thought or belief here.   Those of us who have been born again, thereby having the indwelling Holy Spirit who helps us to desire to live the Christian Life from our hearts.....and those that seem to be seeking to turn Christianity into a legalistic religion.

It is so much better to understand what the New Covenant is about....the law written in our hearts.   This has been spoken of in the Old Testament.

For those not taught about the New Covenant, this might be helpful.   The video included in the article is already approved.

https://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html

[Alive]

Of course our God doesn't want us to sin...I just recalled an analogy that I haven't thought of for decades, but it was helpful back then and actually came out of experience. In other words, I became aware of a difference subsequent to the Lord intercepting me and making me 'Alive' in Him.

Before that moment, it was very easy and natural to sin. It was like being in a river and just going with the flow. Afterwards, sinning seemed unnatural and I felt an inner resistance to that flow.

I found myself in a new river and if I yielded to its flow, there was a peace and sense of God's pleasure. Whenever I would backslide, so to speak and yield to the flesh, that sense of 'rightness' left. It became uncomfortable there. This is something that the Lord did in me. I was not the same.

As time went on, I learned what had happened and just what that difference was. In this case, the experience first and the knowledge later.

Of course, the depth and breadth of what the Lord did 'In Christ' became more apparent as the Lord taught.

All of this came through Grace. One of the things that became apparent at times of struggle (the Lord always allows this in order to teach us further), is that I could not with my own efforts find that place of peace and rest in trying to please Him. When I got tired of trying to swim against the current of the sin of flesh--getting exhausted, so to speak--I would fall back and repose once again in the simple reality of Christ 'In me' and flow once again in that river of Life.

This is the Law of the 'Spirit of Life' 'In Christ.

The other is the spirit of law--trying on my own to please Him.

These two fundamental 'principles' are very important and make all the difference in the ongoing life of a believer.

I hope this is of some help to some who may be reading.

 

edited to add a scripture note.

I would like to add one thought here.

We can get into trouble as believers if and when we look either to ourselves or others. There we will often find disappointment.

This is common to all of us walking on this earth. This wee scripture in Hebrews deals with this for us.

Heb. 12:2 ¹fixing our eyes on Jesus, the ^2aauthor and perfecter of faith,

In the context of 'running the race' as Paul mentioned and the writer of Hebrews mentioned...we only need to keep our eyes on Him. I prefer to translate that verse as 'looking off to, the author and finisher of our faith'.

Looking off from ourselves and others--to Him.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Alive

[Debp]

9 minutes ago, Alive said:

Of course our God doesn't want us to sin...I just recalled an analogy that I haven't thought of for decades, but it was helpful back then and actually came out of experience. In other words, I became aware of a difference subsequent to the Lord intercepting me and making me 'Alive' in Him.

Before that moment, it was very easy and natural to sin. It was like being in a river and just going with the flow. Afterwards, sinning seemed unnatural and I felt an inner resistance to that flow.

I found myself in a new river and if I yielded to its flow, there was a peace and sense of God's pleasure. Whenever I would backslide, so to speak and yield to the flesh, that sense of 'rightness' left. It became uncomfortable there. This is something that the Lord did in me. I was not the same.

As time went on, I learned what had happened and just what that difference was. In this case, the experience first and the knowledge later.

Of course, the depth and breadth of what the Lord did 'In Christ' became more apparent as the Lord taught.

All of this came through Grace. One of the things that became apparent at times of struggle (the Lord always allows this in order to teach us further), is that I could not with my own efforts find that place of peace and rest in trying to please Him. When I got tired of trying to swim against the current of the sin of flesh--getting exhausted, so to speak--I would fall back and repose once again in the simple reality of Christ 'In me' and flow once again in that river of Life.

This is the Law of the 'Spirit of Life' 'In Christ.

The other is the spirit of law--trying on my own to please Him.

These two fundamental 'principles' are very important and make all the difference in the ongoing life of a believer.

I hope this is of some help to some who may be reading.

Thanks so much for explaining how the Holy Spirit works in our hearts and lives.    Some of us try to explain this but we sometimes seem to be misunderstood.....some seem to think we believe in sinning, which is incorrect, of course.     It helps to have others express it, too.... perhaps you will be understood better than us.   

[JTC]

16 minutes ago, Debp said:

There seems to be two schools of thought or belief here.

No Debbie you're wrong. First of all, the title of this post is an oxymoron, which is the only reason I even answered it.

  The words righteous or righteousness imply behavior, go look them up. I don't understand why you're confused. You shouldn't be. Yes God saw the righteousness of Jesus in us in order to give us the deposit of grace called salvation. Because no one is saved based on her own righteousness, that much is obvious. But what about after God has given you the grace of salvation, then what. Based on your many words, you don't believe we have to do a thing. I disagree. I'm also sick of this argument. Even if you nullify everything Jesus said because you think His words don't apply to us since He hadn't died & been resurrected yet, you still have all the apostles saying in every epistle that our behavior matters to God. It takes 2 things for us to have even a little righteousness. It takes God (the new birth) and our cooperation to go along with Him. You won't have any righteousness at all unless you stop resisting the Holy Spirit. God does not force us. 

  I feel badly if you can't see this.

[Steve_S]

This is getting far too personal. Please remember the Terms of Service. Further violations in this thread will result in removal from it.

[JustPassingThru]

The Holy Spirit tells us there are two laws, ...the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, ...and the Law of Sin and Death of the flesh.

The question is; ...which of those two laws did Jesus walk in when He visited this planet?

If we know what manner of Man Jesus was, ...then we know the answer to this question, ...He walked a perfect, sinless life, NOT because He was God, ...but because He  had ''emptied'' Himself of His Divine ''attributes'' and relied solely on the Holy Spirit to guide and direct His life for 33 years, ...why(?) ...to  show us mortal men how to walk like He walked, ...in the Law of the Spirit of Life ''in'' our Lord Christ Jesus! 

The Holy Spirit's ''message,'' directly from Christ Jesus is, ... ''the'' Law of the Spirit of Life has set us ''free'' from the Law of Sin and Death, ...is that not good news?

But wait, ...there is more, the Holy Spirit tells us, encourages us, assures us, ...that ''we'' who walk ''with'' the Holy Spirit in the Law of Life, ...are His ''only'' children and those that ''try'' by/with their fleshly ''works'' are NOT ! Rom 8:9 

THAT'S heavy and is a direct reference back to 1 Cor 15:2, ''...unless you have believed the Gospel in vain...''

Jesus was the ''only'' Man that has ever walked on this planet and kept the Law flawlessly, ...but there are those that believe the old lie of the serpant, that they have ''become'' like GOD, and can keep the Law of Sin and Death in/by the ''works'' of their flesh, ...God, in His infinite wisdom, chose the perfect man to write this, Paul, who himself said, ...he ''thought'' he was blameless in keeping the Law of Sin and Death, ...good luck to any that think they are more ''righteous'' than Paul in their ''works'' of the flesh!

Me, I'm very happy, joyful, at peace with following in the ''footsteps'' of the Spirit of Christ and allowing Him to lead me down the path Father has predestined for me, ...I have laid my ''burden'' down at the foot of the Cross and have put on the ''yoke'' of Christ and am at total peace and rest with it...

Those that have ears to hear, let them hear...

Lord bless 

[Alive]

2 hours ago, JTC said:

No Debbie you're wrong. First of all, the title of this post is an oxymoron, which is the only reason I even answered it.

  The words righteous or righteousness imply behavior, go look them up. I don't understand why you're confused. You shouldn't be. Yes God saw the righteousness of Jesus in us in order to give us the deposit of grace called salvation. Because no one is saved based on her own righteousness, that much is obvious. But what about after God has given you the grace of salvation, then what. Based on your many words, you don't believe we have to do a thing. I disagree. I'm also sick of this argument. Even if you nullify everything Jesus said because you think His words don't apply to us since He hadn't died & been resurrected yet, you still have all the apostles saying in every epistle that our behavior matters to God. It takes 2 things for us to have even a little righteousness. It takes God (the new birth) and our cooperation to go along with Him. You won't have any righteousness at all unless you stop resisting the Holy Spirit. God does not force us. 

  I feel badly if you can't see this.

JTC---if I may respond. Certainly not to refute the substance of what you say, but only to hopefully add something that I think is important.

First--of course there is to be a change in behavior that is required. There isn't any doubt about that.

The question in each of these debates of position on either side of this issue is about 'how--or by what agency' is that change of behavior to happen.

I contend that it is 'there', in the matter of 'what agency', that we can best be informed.

This question and the relevant answers are not difficult in and of itself, but rather it becomes difficult because of the language and issues raised by the debate itself. To be clear ( I hope), the answer is easy, but the waters of discussion are muddied, by our collective minds that try to explain and understand.

There is a dynamic that is integral to our experience as humans that persists even after we are 'born from above'. That dynamic is the flesh that when applied to serving God can only fall short of pleasing God. This is what Paul taught us when describing his desire to please. We are all familiar with his narrative. In that, Paul points to the answer. "It is no longer I that live, but Christ in me". That reality is the answer.

Moving on to the other dynamic mentioned above; it is undeniably true that whenever 'doing' or 'performing' is mentioned in the context of serving God, something is invoked within us. What is invoked is that flesh that desires to please God--this brings us into the realm of 'law' as a principle, and the accompanying 'law of sin and death'--and it takes us away from having our eyes fixed on Christ and His Life operating according to that New Nature within us---to instead, our efforts to please Him.

There is a distinction here that is important. Yes, it is good and honorable and praise worthy to desire to 'do' those things that please Him and to refrain from 'doing' those things that aren't pleasing to Him.

The question of 'doing' however, because it appeals (invokes) that fleshly desire, which is always tied directly to the principle of the 'law' as mentioned above---has the very real potential to move us off of the safe place of abiding 'In Him' and His finished work, which result is a New Nature that is alive within us.

Knowing this New Life as a reality frees us from that other 'dynamic' and has given us the power to live in a completely different Way.

We are moved on to a new and solid footing. Christ becomes everything to and for us. We begin to see that we need nothing besides Him. That He is our all in every way and that the old way of the flesh and the dynamic of 'law' and its accompanying death principle falls away as we 'Abide' in Him by faith.

This is fully available to us, but it isn't taught in fullness as it should be. Rather, that principle of 'law' makes its way into our minds and holds back the Lord's children from fully realizing the miracle of new Life and the very real experience of what the Father 'In Christ' purchased for us. As strange as it may seem, we are to stop trying and rather surrender to the new Life within. When we do this, we are in essence 'co-workers' with Him toward the works he prepared for us to walk in.

So, the difference is not in the behavior subsequent to 'new birth', but rather how it comes about--what force or 'agency' is responsible.

The Father wants us to enjoy the one and leave behind the other....the 'law' was the teacher that brings us to this new and better Way.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Alive

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

 

 As strange as it may seem, we are to stop trying and rather surrender to the new Life within. When we do this, we are in essence 'co-workers' with Him toward the works he prepared

 

As I have said many times....quit “ trying” and start “trusting”......The difference means everything .