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Proverbs 31

Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

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9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:
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I think you grasp what Jesus is saying about the [2 different]  days of the Son of man, being likened unto the [2 important parts of the] days of Noah.   He equates the [2 days of the] rapture and his advent/ coming of the kingdom with the DAY that Noah entered ark and the DAY that the flood came. 

No, when He comes in His day it will be like lightning etc. Noah enters the ark 7 days before the flood and the ark doors are closed. The day the flood comes is His wrath. The Church will not be here for the tribulation as they are in the ark 7 days before the flood. There will be another day of the son of man, when it will be like lightning etc. At this coming all eyes will see Him in the clouds. It will be like the days of Lot and destruction, wrath will occur the day Lot leaves Sodom.

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 Matthew and Luke equivocates the parousia/ coming with the day that Jesus is revealed;  and the erchomai/ coming with the arrival of the kingdom of god.   And in both gospels,  they both equate the parousia and his revealing with lightning that is visible from one end of the spectrum to the other [east to west].  And your advocation of a secret rapture is exactly what Jesus is warning against believing someone who tries to tell you differently. 

You should rethink this. He comes for the Gentiles, then the eyes of the 12 tribes are opened and they are regrafted into the olive tree.

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In Luke 17 Jesus said that the days that are coming [in which people try to convince that Jesus has secretly come]  would be BEFORE any of the days of the son of man have taken place. 

That BEFORE comment is impossible because the day of the son of man IS WHEN HE COMES as lightning.
 

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 But I understand why you believe that.   Jesus said that the reaction of the world to the period of time [between the rapture and the kingdom,] will be oblivious behavior to the impending destruction, that will come to everyone.   He said that the world will be acting like it didn't happen.   This is reiterated in the words of Peter. 

2Pe 3:4 KJV And saying, Where is the promise of his coming(parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

 They say those things now. Even when He comes for the Church, those that are here will not know that He has come. Those that gain understanding, the twelve tribes will understand. These are told to look up their redemption draws nigh, which happens at the end of the tribulation. Those here will know that He is coming soon.

As for the church, the GOODMAN will not know when the master will return.

Two raptures. One for the Gentiles and one for the twelve tribes.

 

 

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9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi JPT,

If I may, I'll answer.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;  Eph 5:25

So, in this scripture that you are quoting/using, it says......"EVEN as Christ loved the Church....."

How did Christ love the Church?

Did He not give everything, I mean absolutely everything He had for His church....us?

Did He not endure the worst of whippings, floggings, punches, beatings.....crucifixion....for us, His Bride?

Scripture says He was unrecognizable as a human.

Why do you think it is only the western church who should escape the tribulation, when our brothers and sisters in over 50 countries face persecution/tribulation daily?

This emotional cry of...."why would God beat up His bride"  is .......well.....nonsense in my opinion.

IN THIS WORLD YOU WILL HAVE TRIBULATION.

Just believe scripture.

Agreed.  The whole "why would God beat up His bride" rhetoric is an emotional appeal designed to exploit one's lack of scriptural understanding.  God doesn't beat up His bride.

  • “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.  If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.  John 15:18-20

The things that God allows to happen are not subject to our sense of fairness.  Ask Job.  The bride is to remain faithful and persevere to the end, regardless of what He allows to come our way.

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On 11/24/2019 at 8:59 AM, Proverbs 31 said:

I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

This post demonstrates the classic prewrath error. One day VanKampen called Rosenthal and said, "I've found it! I've found it!" He had been looking for a clue the church in general had missed for 1900 years! What was it he found? In Matthew 24, it tells of the cosmic signs in the sun and moon AFTER the days of great tribulation. But in Joel 2 the cosmic signs in the sun and moon come BEFORE the Day of the Lord.  The day of the Lord then begins at the 6th seal, so, Van Kampen reasoned, the days of GT MUST come before the 6th seal.  It SOUNDS right. Millions have swallowed this line of thinking "hook, line, and sinker." 

So what is wrong with this? It is very simple: the signs at the 6th seal come BEFORE the entire 70th week,  are the signs for the coming Day of the Lord -  and are NOT THE SAME signs as Matthew talks about that come AFTER the entire 70th week and is the sign for the coming of Our Lord to Armageddon.  In other words, these are TWO SEPARATE signs, for TWO different purposes, and come at TWO separate times, separated by over 7 years.

Notice that at the 6th seal and in Joel 2, the signs are a blood red moon and a sun "black as sackcloth."  Stop and think: WHEN does the moon appear red? It is during an eclipse. WHEN does the sign of the sun appearing black happen? During a total solar eclipse. But stop and think: how would anyone KNOW the moon is red in color? They would have to SEE IT. How would anyone know the sun is black? They would have to SEE IT.

On the other hand, if the moon is darkened, no light is being reflected and the moon cannot be seen. If the sun is darkened, no one is seeing it either. Strong's tells us this "darkened" means "absence of light." Notice also the stars don't give any light. I was living in Idaho when Mount St. Helen's blew her top. At 2:00 or 3:00 PM it became dark as night. NOTHING looking up was visible! The sun was blocked out by ash.

If people would read in Joel, chapter 2 tells us of the sign for the coming Day of the Lord, while Joel 3 tells us of the sign for the Coming Christ and King.  If they would just notice that the sign at the 6th seal is part of the seals that is sealing a BOOK, and what is written inside that book is most of the rest of Revelation, they would know that the 6th seal comes BEFORE the entire 70th week (what is inside the book) so it is impossible to move the 6th seal to a point later in Revelation. 

In Revelation, if we just follow John's narrative, the Beast that will cause the days of GT is seen rising in chapter 13. That chapter also shows us HOW He will create those days of GT. He will force people to worship an image (Think Nebuchadnezzar) and receive a mark on threat of beheading. However, it is in chapter 14 that God gives the warning about the mark, showing is that at the time of chapter 14 the mark is not yet being enforced. Therefore, the days of GT in Revelation must come after the warning in chapter 14. As confirmation, the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

Therefore to assume the days of GT are before the 6th seal is simply very very poor exegesis. Prewrath theory is proven wrong again and again in Revelation.

Edited by iamlamad

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23 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I have decided that I am pre-heaven.. all the others failed me due to difficulties that all the various ideas have.

I completely agree, yet many will continue to debate the issue out of pride with big type, all caps, colored verses, you name it, to push their pet theology.

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4 hours ago, The Light said:

 

 

4 hours ago, The Light said:

As for the church, the GOODMAN will not know when the master will return.

Why does the Goodman watch?  Because he knows when the thief is coming.   Why does Jesus tell the church to watch?   Because he has given us the information to know when he is coming.    

Mat 24:42-44 KJV    Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Be Blessed 

The PuP   

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This post demonstrates the classic prewrath error. One day VanKampen called Rosenthal and said, "I've found it! I've found it!" He had been looking for a clue the church in general had missed for 1900 years! What was it he found? In Matthew 24, it tells of the cosmic signs in the sun and moon AFTER the days of great tribulation. But in Joel 2 the cosmic signs in the sun and moon come BEFORE the Day of the Lord.  The day of the Lord then begins at the 6th seal, so, Van Kampen reasoned, the days of GT MUST come before the 6th seal.  It SOUNDS right. Millions have swallowed this line of thinking "hook, line, and sinker." 

So what is wrong with this? It is very simple: the signs at the 6th seal come BEFORE the entire 70th week,  are the signs for the coming Day of the Lord -  and are NOT THE SAME signs as Matthew talks about that come AFTER the entire 70th week and is the sign for the coming of Our Lord to Armageddon.  In other words, these are TWO SEPARATE signs, for TWO different purposes, and come at TWO separate times, separated by over 7 years.

Notice that at the 6th seal and in Joel 2, the signs are a blood red moon and a sun "black as sackcloth."  Stop and think: WHEN does the moon appear red? It is during an eclipse. WHEN does the sign of the sun appearing black happen? During a total solar eclipse. But stop and think: how would anyone KNOW the moon is red in color? They would have to SEE IT. How would anyone know the sun is black? They would have to SEE IT.

On the other hand, if the moon is darkened, no light is being reflected and the moon cannot be seen. If the sun is darkened, no one is seeing it either. Strong's tells us this "darkened" means "absence of light." Notice also the stars don't give any light. I was living in Idaho when Mount St. Helen's blew her top. At 2:00 or 3:00 PM it became dark as night. NOTHING looking up was visible! The sun was blocked out by ash.

If people would read in Joel, chapter 2 tells us of the sign for the coming Day of the Lord, while Joel 3 tells us of the sign for the Coming Christ and King.  If they would just notice that the sign at the 6th seal is part of the seals that is sealing a BOOK, and what is written inside that book is most of the rest of Revelation, they would know that the 6th seal comes BEFORE the entire 70th week (what is inside the book) so it is impossible to move the 6th seal to a point later in Revelation. 

In Revelation, if we just follow John's narrative, the Beast that will cause the days of GT is seen rising in chapter 13. That chapter also shows us HOW He will create those days of GT. He will force people to worship an image (Think Nebuchadnezzar) and receive a mark on threat of beheading. However, it is in chapter 14 that God gives the warning about the mark, showing is that at the time of chapter 14 the mark is not yet being enforced. Therefore, the days of GT in Revelation must come after the warning in chapter 14. As confirmation, the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

Therefore to assume the days of GT are before the 6th seal is simply very very poor exegesis. Prewrath theory is proven wrong again and again in Revelation.

This is a typical pretrib reaction... that Jesus either didn't know or didn't tell the church when he was going to come for them... When "his day would come".

And,  as I have shown from Luke 17, that we shall enter the days when many shall promulgate the lie that "he is in the desert", or LO HERE,  or LO THERE,  which will NOT come until we have entered into the time of great tribulation.    According to Jesus,  one half of the world will perish before our redemption comes. 

Edit to add:  Death by tribulation is the easy road as opposed to overcoming the deceptive signs of false Christs and prophets. 

   
Luk 17:22-23 KJV    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Mar 13:21-25 KJV    And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But IN THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

It doesn't even matter if you think that Jesus wasn't talking to the church.   Why do you watch?

Mar 13:23 KJV But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Did Jesus tell us about the 7 trumpets.   No.  Did Jesus lie to us then?   Absolutely not.   Because what Jesus told us are all the things that the whole world will experience... before the church is removed. 

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mar 13:23 KJV But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

What takes place after,  will only come upon those who are left behind. 

Be Blessed

The PuP

p.s.  and yes,  lamad,  ALL these things includes the abomination of desolation... It does not occur at the 7th trumpet. 

Luk 21:28 KJV And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Edited by Da Puppers
Added a P.S.
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2 hours ago, OneLight said:

I completely agree, yet many will continue to debate the issue out of pride with big type, all caps, colored verses, you name it, to push their pet theology.

Colored verses = pride?  I use bold, italic, and color for clarification since this is a textual forum.  Is that wrong?

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4 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Colored verses = pride?  I use bold, italic, and color for clarification since this is a textual forum.  Is that wrong?

I am talking more about those who feel it is necessary to be overbearing in order to get their point across.  Highlighting and using bold and color is not wrong as it makes a specific meaning stand out, but when someone uses a very large font, capitalizes sentences, and uses colors at the same time projects being very prideful as they are screaming in the readers face  with force in order to stand out and to shut the other down.   I am sure you can find such posts just by roaming through threads that are less than a couple of months old. 

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On 11/24/2019 at 9:59 AM, Proverbs 31 said:

I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

I started out pre-trib, simply because that is what I was told by the staff at the first church I attended. But when I studied it, I became "mid-trib". But it's really "post trib, pre-wrath". 

But I've even gone somewhat into the "pan-trib" camp. That is, it will all pan out in the end. :) Bottom line is that I think everyone is wrong, just as they were about Christ before he was resurrected. Nobody got it right.

The best way to interpret prophesy is in hindsight. :)

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34 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I am talking more about those who feel it is necessary to be overbearing in order to get their point across.  Highlighting and using bold and color is not wrong as it makes a specific meaning stand out, but when someone uses a very large font, capitalizes sentences, and uses colors at the same time projects being very prideful as they are screaming in the readers face  with force in order to stand out and to shut the other down.   I am sure you can find such posts just by roaming through threads that are less than a couple of months old. 

I can agree.  It's the Spirit who reveals truth.  Being overly persistent only serves to alienate.

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