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Proverbs 31

Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

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2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

This is a typical pretrib reaction... that Jesus either didn't know or didn't tell the church when he was going to come for them... When "his day would come".

And,  as I have shown from Luke 17, that we shall enter the days when many shall promulgate the lie that "he is in the desert", or LO HERE,  or LO THERE,  which will NOT come until we have entered into the time of great tribulation.    According to Jesus,  one half of the world will perish before our redemption comes. 

Edit to add:  Death by tribulation is the easy road as opposed to overcoming the deceptive signs of false Christs and prophets. 

   
Luk 17:22-23 KJV    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Mar 13:21-25 KJV    And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But IN THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

It doesn't even matter if you think that Jesus wasn't talking to the church.   Why do you watch?

Mar 13:23 KJV But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Did Jesus tell us about the 7 trumpets.   No.  Did Jesus lie to us then?   Absolutely not.   Because what Jesus told us are all the things that the whole world will experience... before the church is removed. 

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mar 13:23 KJV But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

What takes place after,  will only come upon those who are left behind. 

Be Blessed

The PuP

p.s.  and yes,  lamad,  ALL these things includes the abomination of desolation... It does not occur at the 7th trumpet. 

Luk 21:28 KJV And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

What Jesus told them is that no one knows the day nor the hour He is coming - he only left an outline so people could prepare. For example, when the events of the trumpets take place, people can know the final 7 years have started. When the sea turns to blood, they will know the week is almost at the end. 

It is almost without a doubt when those that flee are save in the city of Petra (or some other protected spot) that people are going to try and deceive them by saying "Christ is here" or "Christ is there."   And we agree, this time will be in the last half of the week. 

According to Jesus,  one half of the world will perish before our redemption comes. Please, back this up with scripture?

I think the choice for those left behind will be an either or: either take the mark or be beheaded. For those deceived, they will just take the mark.

But IN THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,  Key here: no one can see a moon not giving her light. On the other hand - for the OTHER sign, the sign for the DAY, not the sign for His coming - the moon will appear blood red: it therefore CAN and WILL be seen.  The sign of a sun and moon that cannot be seen is the sign for HIS COMING - after the days of GT. It is plain: two different signs for two different purposes. 

Did Jesus tell us about the 7 trumpets.   No.  Did Jesus lie to us then?   Absolutely not.  This has been one of my arguments with DH: Jesus just touched on the highlights.  He skipped right over the first half of the week. DH does not believe this. 

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.  WHICH end? The end of the church age that will end at the rapture? NO! It is the end that will end Jewish age, the end of the 70th week and the return of Christ.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.  Who is this to: the church? Or to the Jews left behind at the pretrib rapture that must suffer the entire week? I say it is talking the the JEW who will miss the rapture and must survive the 70th week. 

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5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What Jesus told them is that no one knows the day nor the hour He is coming - he only left an outline so people could prepare. For example, when the events of the trumpets take place, people can know the final 7 years have started. When the sea turns to blood, they will know the week is almost at the end. 

It is almost without a doubt when those that flee are save in the city of Petra (or some other protected spot) that people are going to try and deceive them by saying "Christ is here" or "Christ is there."   And we agree, this time will be in the last half of the week. 

According to Jesus,  one half of the world will perish before our redemption comes. Please, back this up with scripture?

I think the choice for those left behind will be an either or: either take the mark or be beheaded. For those deceived, they will just take the mark.

But IN THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,  Key here: no one can see a moon not giving her light. On the other hand - for the OTHER sign, the sign for the DAY, not the sign for His coming - the moon will appear blood red: it therefore CAN and WILL be seen.  The sign of a sun and moon that cannot be seen is the sign for HIS COMING - after the days of GT. It is plain: two different signs for two different purposes. 

Did Jesus tell us about the 7 trumpets.   No.  Did Jesus lie to us then?   Absolutely not.  This has been one of my arguments with DH: Jesus just touched on the highlights.  He skipped right over the first half of the week. DH does not believe this. 

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.  WHICH end? The end of the church age that will end at the rapture? NO! It is the end that will end Jewish age, the end of the 70th week and the return of Christ.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.  Who is this to: the church? Or to the Jews left behind at the pretrib rapture that must suffer the entire week? I say it is talking the the JEW who will miss the rapture and must survive the 70th week. 

Your big mistake...Pre-tribbers big mistake... Pre-wrathers big mistake...Post-tribbers big mistake... is failing to realize that Jesus didn't tell us, them, or anyone else what happens [in the Olivet Discourse] after the 7th trumpet sounds and he gathers the elect with a great trumpet.   But john does. It does not matter who he told these things to.  I wasn't there.  You weren't there.   Nobody alive today was there.   Do you know what foretold means?  It means before they happen.   

Mar 13:23 KJV But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

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Just now, Da Puppers said:

Your big mistake...Pre-tribbers big mistake... Pre-wrathers big mistake...Post-tribbers big mistake... is failing to realize that Jesus didn't tell us, them, or anyone else what happens [in the Olivet Discourse] after the 7th trumpet sounds and he gathers the elect with a great trumpet.   But john does. It does not matter who he told these things to.  I wasn't there.  You weren't there.   Nobody alive today was there.   Do you know what foretold means?  It means before they happen.   

Mar 13:23 KJV But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Sorry, but you are simply mistaken; Jesus did not even talk about the Gentile church of today in his discourse. People only imagine He did. The truth is, the Gentile church came later, after Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as their Messiah. God gave them a few years through the ministry of the disciples, but to no avail.  The gathering of the church will take place before the week starts. The gathering after the days of tribulation will be God gathering all of the Jews and Hebrews back to Israel as He promised. 

I know what prophecy is. The sad part, many people just cannot believe what has been prophesied. 

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1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you are simply mistaken; Jesus did not even talk about the Gentile church of today in his discourse. People only imagine He did. The truth is, the Gentile church came later, after Israel as a nation rejected Jesus as their Messiah. God gave them a few years through the ministry of the disciples, but to no avail.  The gathering of the church will take place before the week starts. The gathering after the days of tribulation will be God gathering all of the Jews and Hebrews back to Israel as He promised. 

I know what prophecy is. The sad part, many people just cannot believe what has been prophesied. 

 Was Jesus referring to,  and including the rapture of the church,  when he likened the days of Noah to the days of the Son of man? Luke 17.

Yes or no?

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

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18 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Yes brother I agree with you...

Who is "persecuting" them, ...did Jesus not tell us it would be the world?

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.  John 15:18-19

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.  John 16:33

So the real "question" is, ...why should the "end time" Church be the "only" church, since Pentecost, that will be persecuted by "God" during the Tribulation? 

Hi JPT,

So the real "question" is, ...why should the "end time" Church be the "only" church, since Pentecost, that will be persecuted by "God" during the Tribulation?

Ok, fair question.

Why do you think that it is God who is persecuting the church during the end time tribulation?

Do you equate persecution or tribulation with God's Wrath?

If you say yes, then that means that the church from its inception at Pentecost was and has been under Gods Wrath.

I see the Great Tribulation, (great meaning widespread, from the Greek Megas) as wrath from both Satan and co., and unregenerate mankind, against believers in Christ, and Jews. Satan hates both groups. Anti semetism is once again rearing its ugly head (globally)......and Christian persecution is at an all time high. 

When Gods  Wrath begins....."The Lord alone will be exalted in that Day" (Isa 2:11)................ Satans wrath will be over and done with. Then the Lord will "rock and roll" and start busting heads!

I believe, and I think scripture supports the belief, that Gods Wrath does not begin until after the seals are opened. The  trumpet and bowl judgments then, are the Wrath of God. 

And, the Wrath of God lasts only for about a year. And there is much support from scripture for this year long Wrath of God. Not 7 years like so many believe.

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5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 Was Jesus referring to,  and including the rapture of the church,  when he likened the days of Noah to the days of the Son of man? Luke 17.

Yes or no?

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

First off, we must discover why Jesus mentioned Noah. His point was the SUDDENNESS of His coming, not that things today are like they were in Noah's day. Same with Lot: it was the very day Lot was removed that destruction came. In both cases people woke up that day thinking it would just be day like the day before - but before the day ended, they were dead. 

Now we see the purpose Jesus had in mentioning Noah, it can be applied to His pretrib coming and / or His coming to Armageddon.  IN CONTEXT it is His coming for Armageddon.  It is going to be a sudden and unexpected coming just as His coming to the clouds for the rapture. I receive blessings!

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2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi JPT,

So the real "question" is, ...why should the "end time" Church be the "only" church, since Pentecost, that will be persecuted by "God" during the Tribulation?

Ok, fair question.

Why do you think that it is God who is persecuting the church during the end time tribulation?

Do you equate persecution or tribulation with God's Wrath?

If you say yes, then that means that the church from its inception at Pentecost was and has been under Gods Wrath.

I see the Great Tribulation, (great meaning widespread, from the Greek Megas) as wrath from both Satan and co., and unregenerate mankind, against believers in Christ, and Jews. Satan hates both groups. Anti semetism is once again rearing its ugly head (globally)......and Christian persecution is at an all time high. 

When Gods  Wrath begins....."The Lord alone will be exalted in that Day" (Isa 2:11)................ Satans wrath will be over and done with. Then the Lord will "rock and roll" and start busting heads!

I believe, and I think scripture supports the belief, that Gods Wrath does not begin until after the seals are opened. The  trumpet and bowl judgments then, are the Wrath of God. 

And, the Wrath of God lasts only for about a year. And there is much support from scripture for this year long Wrath of God. Not 7 years like so many believe.

When Gods  Wrath begins....."The Lord alone will be exalted in that Day" (Isa 2:11)................ Satans wrath will be over and done with.

This is simply not true. It is therefore human reasoning. John shows us very clearly that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent. When Satan's wrath is at its peak (the number of murders per day at its highest), then God will send the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. 

I believe, and I think scripture supports the belief, that Gods Wrath does not begin until after the seals are opened.   You are correct. It is clear, His wrath begins at the 6th seal. The rapture happens, then instantly following the 6th seal is opened to start the Day of the Lord and His wrath. 

The  trumpet and bowl judgments then, are the Wrath of God.   Exactly! Good job! But where are the days of GT among the trumpets and bowls? We can tell because the beheaded only BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15, so the days of GT BEGIN between the trumpets and the bowls. God will use the bowl judgments to shorten the days of GT.

And, the Wrath of God lasts only for about a year.  How do you possibly come up with this? Teh trumpets will cover the first 3.5 years, and added to that will be much of the second half of the week. But Jesus will have wrath when HE comes to Armageddon, so it is STILL God's wrath for the entire week and then after the week to His coming. 

Look, when there is ONE VERSE (or two) in the old testament that some might imagine tells us some time of wrath will be one year, but we have MANY MANY verses in Revelation showing us the entire week in our future is His wrath, it is wisdom to go with the most resent Revelation. 

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1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

When Gods  Wrath begins....."The Lord alone will be exalted in that Day" (Isa 2:11)................ Satans wrath will be over and done with.

This is simply not true. It is therefore human reasoning. John shows us very clearly that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent. When Satan's wrath is at its peak (the number of murders per day at its highest), then God will send the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. 

I believe, and I think scripture supports the belief, that Gods Wrath does not begin until after the seals are opened.   You are correct. It is clear, His wrath begins at the 6th seal. The rapture happens, then instantly following the 6th seal is opened to start the Day of the Lord and His wrath. 

The  trumpet and bowl judgments then, are the Wrath of God.   Exactly! Good job! But where are the days of GT among the trumpets and bowls? We can tell because the beheaded only BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15, so the days of GT BEGIN between the trumpets and the bowls. God will use the bowl judgments to shorten the days of GT.

And, the Wrath of God lasts only for about a year.  How do you possibly come up with this? Teh trumpets will cover the first 3.5 years, and added to that will be much of the second half of the week. But Jesus will have wrath when HE comes to Armageddon, so it is STILL God's wrath for the entire week and then after the week to His coming. 

Look, when there is ONE VERSE (or two) in the old testament that some might imagine tells us some time of wrath will be one year, but we have MANY MANY verses in Revelation showing us the entire week in our future is His wrath, it is wisdom to go with the most resent Revelation. 

It is therefore human reasoning. John shows us very clearly that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent. When Satan's wrath is at its peak (the number of murders per day at its highest), then God will send the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. 

Well, this is more myth on your part. Satan's wrath and mankind's wrath against the church and the Jews occur during the tribulation. We see this at the 5th seal when the souls under the altar cry out for vengeance, and are told to wait a little longer. So God's wrath doesn't begin until the trumpets, and ends with the vials. Satan is done at the end of the seals. 

But where are the days of GT among the trumpets and bowls? We can tell because the beheaded only BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15, so the days of GT BEGIN between the trumpets and the bowls. God will use the bowl judgments to shorten the days of GT.

There are no days of GT among the trumpets and bowls. They are God's wrath. Period. Satan's wrath is all natural stuff....wars, famine, pestilence, murders, etc. God's wrath is all supernatural. He alone will be glorified in that day.

Teh trumpets will cover the first 3.5 years, and added to that will be much of the second half of the week. But Jesus will have wrath when HE comes to Armageddon, so it is STILL God's wrath for the entire week and then after the week to His coming. 

Where in scripture does it show that the trumpets last 3.5 years? This is more conjecture on your part.

Look, when there is ONE VERSE (or two) in the old testament that some might imagine tells us some time of wrath will be one year, but we have MANY MANY verses in Revelation showing us the entire week in our future is His wrath, it is wisdom to go with the most resent Revelation. 

Since much of Revelation quotes the Old Testament......it would be in your favor to understand the OT. 

Where are these many, many verses in Rev that shows , specifically, that the entire week is His Wrath?

If you had read my post on Revelation, A Fresh Look, I pointed out how Rev 12-15:5 is an explanation of Rev 6-through 11. Same scenario, with Rev 12-15:5 explaining the earlier vision. 

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10 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

Quote

Why does the Goodman watch?  Because he knows when the thief is coming.

   The verse you quoted below says he does NOT know.

Mat 24:42-44 KJV    Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, The Light said:

The verse you quoted below says he does NOT know.

Mat 24:42-44 KJV    WATCH therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye ALSO READY: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Not true.   On both sides of this little parable,  Jesus tells us to watch when he says: 

1. Watch

2. Be ready ALSO.  That's the same as repeating his previous command to watch. 

Watch and be ready.  

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

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