Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That could be assumed to be true if one throws out the OT.   Isaiah is pretty clear that the righteous dead and living are gathered and hidden in their chambers (see John 14:2-3) BEFORE the calamities come upon the earth.  

All of Isaiah 26 talks of this.  Isaiah 26:2 ties into Revelation 4:1.

Isaiah 26:17 ties into Jeremiah 30:6-7 and David in Psalms 27:5 affirms the same.  And Zephaniah 2:1-3 reiterates this also, adding that it will happen BEFORE the decree is issued, which could be the affirmation of the covenant of Daniel 9:27.

And Isaiah 26:19-21 is pretty clear that the righteous, including righteous dead, are taken in accordance with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.  

And 2 Thessalonians 2, the gathering is before the man of sin / son of perdition is revealed.  Paul had to remind them of that because a forged letter had been circulating that had the Thessalonians concerned they were in the day of Lord period.  If they were fearful, it must mean that they felt they had missed something.   Paul reminds them that "that day" would not happen unless the departure happen first and then the man of sin / son of perdition would be revealed.   He amplified it a few verses later stating that the one who restrains will be taken out of the way then the "lawless one" would be revealed.

And what Paul wrote to those Thessalonians  conforms to what David and Zephaniah said on the issue.

The 'elect' being gathered at the end does not mean the church.  The Lord clearly says that Jacob/Israel is His elect in Isaiah 45:4.   Paul also states in Romans 11 that the gifts and calling of God is irrevocable.  And the gathering of the elect of Jacob/Israel ties into Ezekiel 20.   

Don't confuse election with justification.  Jacob/Israel is elect because of the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, which does not mean they are all justified in Messiah though they are all elect.    The redeemed are also elect because of their justification in Messiah, but that doesn't mean the redeemed are literal Jacob/Israel.  As it is literal Jacob/Israel (Judah and Israel) that caused Yeshua to return to His place after He came the first time and it will be literal Jacob / Israel that will have to admit that rejection and turn to the Lord and petition for His return... BEFORE He will return.  Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:37-39.

Your arguments are always sans the body of evidence in favor of cherry picking. I don't wonder why you do that. 

Isaiah 26:16-18

Lord, they came to you in their distress; when you disciplined them, they could barely whisper a prayer. As a pregnant woman about to give birth writhes and cries out in her pain, so were we in your presence, Lord. We were with child, we writhed in labor, but we gave birth to wind. We have not brought salvation to the earth, and the people of the world have not come to life." 

Pretty clear when one looks at all the evidence that the very people you say are removed have undergone chastening at the Hand of our Father. The one lack in all this is timing. Pretrib timing is a hoax as no evidence exists for such timing and a major scriptural passage refutes any other moment of the gathering occurring before GT.

Psalm 27

 

The LORD is my light and my salvation—whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life—whom shall I dread? When the wicked came upon me to devour my flesh,my enemies and foes stumbled and fell. Though an army encamps around me, my heart will not fear; though a war breaks out against me, I will keep my trust. One thing I have asked of the LORD; this is what I desire: to dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and seek Him in His temple. For in the day of trouble He will hide me in His shelter;  He will conceal me under the cover of His tent; He will set me high upon a rock. Then my head will be held high above my enemies around me.

When all this is taken into account the truth shines through. David is speaking to the fact he will not fear when right in the middle of the conflagration. Not taken out, just not afraid of the calamity.

Best to have this foundation.

Jer 30.

Ask now, and see: Can a male give birth? Why then do I see every man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor and every face turned pale? How awful that day will be!

None will be like it! It is the time of Jacob’s distress, but he will be saved out of it."

If this is proof of a pretrib anything it's pretty weak. These people are clearly depicted in a great deal of trouble. And how is it called distress when, as you advocate, the people are taken out to avoid distress? Should be called the time of Jacob's rest. The fact that you quote these passages is interesting.

Beyond the comprehensive evisceration of the text in 2 Thess 2 by pretrib proponents it's made clear by Paul that if one is not the seed of Abraham they are not in Christ. Therefore true Israel is the elect and consists of all those in Christ. But you go...

The group called the elect in scripture is more than special. The concept of 'elect' carries deep meaning, e.g.:

 as a deeply personal choice – literally "chosen, out of a personal preference (intention)." See 1586 (eklegomai).

Typically, 1588 /eklektós ("select, chosen") describes people who choose to follow the Lord, i.e. become God's choice by freely receiving faith"

"to select (choose) out of, by a highly deliberate choice (i.e. real heart-preference) with a definite outcome (as with the destination of divine selection for salvation)."

"a (divine) selection" "select, by implication favorite"

Justification is the rendering of righteousness by faith in the judgement of our Father.

"The believer is "made righteous/justified" (1344 /dikaióō) by the Lord, cleared of all charges (punishment) related to their sins. Moreover, they are justified (1344 /dikaióō, "made right, righteous") by God's grace each time they receive (obey) faith (4102 /pístis), i.e. "God's inwrought persuasion" (cf. the -oō ending which conveys "to bring to/out"). See 1343 (dikaiosynē)."

So if the elect are as described as above then that's all believers, where justification is simply rendering a judgement of innocence. One must be justified before one is considered a favorite. And I'm pretty sure if it's only the elect described as above, then your group you declare as justified isn't a part of that, as you have said many times. 

Have it your way. I want to be the choice one of God through accepting His faith, a selected favorite by His heart's desire.

 

 

 

[OldCoot]

54 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So if the elect are as described as above then that's all believers, where justification is simply rendering a judgement of innocence. One must be justified before one is considered a favorite.

Abraham was justified and considered a favorite.  The Covenant was made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  All justified.  And by extension, that makes their posterity elect as the covenant was made with them and their descendants.  The Lord is pretty clear in Isaiah...

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And considering that the main focus of the tribulation period is to drive Jacob/Israel to the wall and realize their offense of rejecting Messiah, turn to Him, and petition for His return as described in Hosea 5:14-15 and that aligns with the "elect" fo Matthew 24 being Jacob/Israel.   From Matthew 24:15 onward is focused on those living in the land of Israel.

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

Why then didn't Jesus lay everything out chronologically? I'm sure you agree he could have. Why did he talk about an end before talking about the aod? I'm not making anything up, it's right there in the bible. 

The END is the 70th week the Jews knew was Prophesied, they just didn't know when the last week would come. Jesus lays it out, he says verses 4 and 5 is NOT THE END. Then he gives us the Church Age {REMEMBER, all this was written years later, so the Chronological order is Matthews interpretation of things Jesus said REMEMBER THAT LATER} via the Nations vs. Nations, the Pestilence {Black Plagues etc.} Earthquakes, Wars etc. etc. He tells how the Disciples will all be killed (save John) he speaks about false preachers and teachers of the Church Age {different than the false christs in verses 4 and 5} and how we must OVERCOME in the Church Age till the very end of our lives to gain the rewards, then lastly about verse 14's preaching unto all the world. So we get the RUNDOWN of the Church Age in verses 7-14. We get the 70 AD Event in verses 4-6. 

Then we get the 70th week in verses 15-31. We get the parable of the fig tree in verses 32-35 and we get THE RAPTURE in verses 36-51....REMEMBER, we don't know how Jesus spoke these words, only how they interpreted Jesus speaking these words. He only gave the Rapture understanding to Paul, so naturally Matthew thought verses 36-51 came AT THE END !! But it really came between verses 14 and 15. It would have been CONFUSING not to know about the Rapture of the Church and having to write Jesus' words down in a Gospel, of course you would place verses 36-51 AFTER verses 29-31 if you were never told Jesus calls the Church home, then we return {Rev. 19} with Jesus to defeat the Beast and his Minions. 

So Jesus laid it out perfectly, Matthew just was not given the Rapture understanding. The Gospels were all from Men's perspectives, that is why we got FOUR Gospels so we could juxtapose them against each other. Jesus told us that if he TESTIFIED OF HIMSELF it would not be a true testimony, so others had to testify of Jesus, so God picked four men to testify of his Son Jesus Christ. Men are imperfect, that is why the Gospels vary in their accounts. They are real men's witness unto the Son of the living God. They are not THUS SAITH THE Lord version or all four would be exactly the same right ? They are four Men's testimonies unto what they saw. 

So remember that, Jesus told us everything we needed to know in the Gospels, but they were written by men who may not have understood the Rapture's Sequence, or better yet, didn't, because God gave it to Paul only. 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

If this is proof of a pretrib anything it's pretty weak

I wasn't making a pre-trib point per se.  I didn't go back and re-read all of what I posted, but I am sure I never mentioned anything about pre-trib or mid-trib for that matter.  The post was in response to the argument that there is no 'rapture' or such until the end of all that period, after the AOD and all the nonsense to come.   That is categorically wrong according to both OT and NT.  Now one can fit what I posted as pre or mid trib to some extent, but post trib or post millennial is not an option.

And some of the disagreement is happening because we are using different translations, and that can be a problem.

For instance, your argument that David was not talking about a removal in Psalms 27.  "the time of trouble", the "the" is a modifier that specifies a unique occurrence, not trouble in general.

Psalms 27:5 (NKJV) For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

That is considerably different in reading and meaning compared to whatever translation you used to post the same passage.  And in conjunction with Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 30:7 (NKJV) Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Well it seems David had a removal and hiding in the abode of the Lord in mind, His pavilion and His tabernacle.  Isaiah seems to suggest the same thing...

Isaiah 26:20 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

And Zephaniah suggests the same thing..

Zephaniah 2:1-3 (NKJV) Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,
2 Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you!
3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

So David, Isaiah, Zephaniah, etc talk about a unique event of being hidden in a unique place from the calamities in a unique period of time of trouble in the future.  And that comports with 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 Corinthians 15, and John 14.  

Now one could suggest that Zephaniah is talking about pre-trib in that he makes a point to state that this happens before the decree is issued.  Now that could be the affirmation of the covenant of Daniel 9:27 or it could be before the opening of the scroll of Revelation 6 or something similar. 'Ol Zeph wasn't specific enough to let us in on what decree he was referring to. But we do know that this 'hiding' will be before the decree is issued.  And from the other passages, it would seem that 'decree' has some connection to the final unique major events coming upon the earth preceding the return of the Lord.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by OldCoot

[ENOCH2010]

32 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The END is the 70th week the Jews knew was Prophesied, they just didn't know when the last week would come. Jesus lays it out, he says verses 4 and 5 is NOT THE END. Then he gives us the Church Age {REMEMBER, all this was written years later, so the Chronological order is Matthews interpretation of things Jesus said REMEMBER THAT LATER} via the Nations vs. Nations, the Pestilence {Black Plagues etc.} Earthquakes, Wars etc. etc. He tells how the Disciples will all be killed (save John) he speaks about false preachers and teachers of the Church Age {different than the false christs in verses 4 and 5} and how we must OVERCOME in the Church Age till the very end of our lives to gain the rewards, then lastly about verse 14's preaching unto all the world. So we get the RUNDOWN of the Church Age in verses 7-14. We get the 70 AD Event in verses 4-6. 

Then we get the 70th week in verses 15-31. We get the parable of the fig tree in verses 32-35 and we get THE RAPTURE in verses 36-51....REMEMBER, we don't know how Jesus spoke these words, only how they interpreted Jesus speaking these words. He only gave the Rapture understanding to Paul, so naturally Matthew thought verses 36-51 came AT THE END !! But it really came between verses 14 and 15. It would have been CONFUSING not to know about the Rapture of the Church and having to write Jesus' words down in a Gospel, of course you would place verses 36-51 AFTER verses 29-31 if you were never told Jesus calls the Church home, then we return {Rev. 19} with Jesus to defeat the Beast and his Minions. 

So Jesus laid it out perfectly, Matthew just was not given the Rapture understanding. The Gospels were all from Men's perspectives, that is why we got FOUR Gospels so we could juxtapose them against each other. Jesus told us that if he TESTIFIED OF HIMSELF it would not be a true testimony, so others had to testify of Jesus, so God picked four men to testify of his Son Jesus Christ. Men are imperfect, that is why the Gospels vary in their accounts. They are real men's witness unto the Son of the living God. They are not THUS SAITH THE Lord version or all four would be exactly the same right ? They are four Men's testimonies unto what they saw. 

So remember that, Jesus told us everything we needed to know in the Gospels, but they were written by men who may not have understood the Rapture's Sequence, or better yet, didn't, because God gave it to Paul only. 

So we are supposed to take the word of revelation man as truth and take the words of Gospels with a grain of salt ? Yeah right!!!! Best be careful with speech like that....

[Diaste]

27 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

And considering that the main focus of the tribulation period is to drive Jacob/Israel to the wall and realize their offense of rejecting Messiah, turn to Him, and petition for His return as described in Hosea 5:14-15 and that aligns with the "elect" fo Matthew 24 being Jacob/Israel.   From Matthew 24:15 onward is focused on those living in the land of Israel.

A major conceptual failure by every pretrib advocate.

"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed, meaning One, who is Christ."

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3

The inverse truth is if you are not Abraham's seed, then you are not in Christ nor heirs of the promise of God. 

The other issue is confusing the nation of Israel with Israel. Abraham's seed are those in Christ no matter the race, this is true Israel.

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Since that is true and Jacob is Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble is the time of trouble for Israel, true Israel and the nation. 

This notion, "From Matthew 24:15 onward is focused on those living in the land of Israel." is a flight of fancy. Jesus is telling believers in Him to beware of false Christs.

"At that time (the time of the A of D and GT), if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance. So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it."

He's not talking to the nation of Israel here as the religious Jews and the nation of Israel does not recognize Jesus as the Lord, God, the Messiah, Almighty God, etc. They would be inclined to believe any report of Jesus as the Christ and hence would not seek Him in the desert or a hidden room; only those in Christ and believing in Him would. This warning is for believers AFTER great tribulation begins.

[Alive]

Tell me what you fellas think of this dream:

This dream has never been shared with the Church wholesale, but was shared within the context of a ‘home church’ body of believers at the time of the dream and then as will become obvious, several years later. The dream was given many years before the 9-11 incident.

The dream was one of those that is as clear as a bell and obvious to the dreamer that it was the Lord. I do hope and pray, it will be edifying. Please understand that the Lord was careful to adhere to His admonition regarding the time is known only to the Father—and He ain’t tellin.

The dream came in two parts and was given back in the late 80’s.

First part:

I saw an airliner about to crash into the tower at the precise angle. The airliner was similar to what we had then, but it was obvious in the dream that it was larger and more modern. That was the impression given in the dream. There were flames and smoke and a clear sense of the chaos that was to follow. Again—this was the clear sense communicated in the dream. The visual was amazingly precise and the picture in the dream precisely like what was shown on TV years later.

Part two:

The second part was like turning a page as though a second chapter.

Many of us believers were gathered in a large room/building that was ‘well lit’. Again this was the strong impression given. A large room that was well lit.

While we were all in this building I found caves beneath the building and came back up stairs and said, “there are caves beneath here where we can flee and be safe. Another brother said, “we should stay here, there are more yet to come”.

 

As you can imagine, when 9/11 occurred there was much discussion.

Conclusions were.

A time of chaos would follow the event.

Believers would be before the Lord and that there would be a tension between fleeing and waiting and trusting.

 

[Diaste]

18 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I wasn't making a pre-trib point per se.  I didn't go back and re-read all of what I posted, but I am sure I never mentioned anything about pre-trib or mid-trib for that matter.  The post was in response to the argument that there is no 'rapture' or such until the end of all that period, after the AOD and all the nonsense to come.   That is categorically wrong according to both OT and NT.  Now one can fit what I posted as pre or mid trib to some extent, but post trib or post millennial is not an option.

And some of the disagreement is happening because we are using different translations, and that can be a problem.

For instance, your argument that David was not talking about a removal in Psalms 27.  "the time of trouble", the "the" is a modifier that specifies a unique occurrence, not trouble in general.

Psalms 27:5 (NKJV) For in the time of trouble
He shall hide me in His pavilion;
In the secret place of His tabernacle
He shall hide me;
He shall set me high upon a rock.

That is considerably different in reading and meaning compared to whatever translation you used to post the same passage.  And in conjunction with Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 30:7 (NKJV) Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Well it seems David had a removal and hiding in the abode of the Lord in mind, His pavilion and His tabernacle.  Isaiah seems to suggest the same thing...

Isaiah 26:20 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

And Zephaniah suggests the same thing..

Zephaniah 2:1-3 (NKJV) Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,
2 Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you!
3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

So David, Isaiah, Zephaniah, etc talk about a unique event of being hidden in a unique place from the calamities in a unique period of time of trouble in the future.  And that comports with 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 Corinthians 15, and John 14.  

Now one could suggest that Zephaniah is talking about pre-trib in that he makes a point to state that this happens before the decree is issued.  Now that could be the affirmation of the covenant of Daniel 9:27 or it could be before the opening of the scroll of Revelation 6 or something similar. 'Ol Zeph wasn't specific enough to let us in on what decree he was referring to. But we do know that this 'hiding' will be before the decree is issued.  And from the other passages, it would seem that 'decree' has some connection to the 'time of trouble'.

 

 

Impossible to gain understanding when the body of work is divorced from selected words. 

Conflation of concepts is a glaring issue as well e.g., the 70th week=Wrath of God. If the 70th week=Wrath, then yes, Pretrib. They are not equivalent. It is a false premise as it's unsupported and even refuted by scripture. 

This false premise is the bedrock of your arguments.

If one allows the Spirit to teach them then one would see the false equivalency, the false premise would crumble, and one would understand that any hiding or removal is from the wrath of God and not the evil of mankind and it's leader, Satan.

"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one."

[OldCoot]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

A major conceptual failure by every pretrib advocate.

"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed, meaning One, who is Christ."

 

A major conceptual failure by everyone who doesn't actually read the covenant...

Genesis 15:18 (NKJV) On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
"To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—

Now that promise has never been fully realized.  Not one time in history has Israel contained all that land.  And the same covenant was made with Isaac and Jacob.

Genesis 17:19 (NKJV) Then God said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him

Genesis 28:13 (NKJV) And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: "I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.

So the covenant has more than Christ alone in view.  The covenant is an unconditional with a linear series in view. 

While the Abrahamic covenant has the specified land in view as being Israel's possession, the Messiah is not so talked about.  The Lord specifically says that all the earth will be His...

Psalms 2:6-8 (NKJV) "Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion."
7 "I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

[Alive]

Is there an agreement that the time of Jacob's trouble starts at the mid-point of the 7 years?