Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[Diaste]

48 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The best thought would be your are not called to understand Prophecy. We should be glad our hand doesn't think its a foot. 

Well, you have no real authority in any case. You are not the last word in eschatological matters. I'll stick with Jesus and reject personal interpretations.

[DeighAnn]

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What is Jesus going to do?  He is going to come back like he left.  NO mention of a "1/2 way" trip.  Could they really have made this comment if there was more than one return?  Just like NOT gathered until AFTER.  People seem to like all the "knowledge" of the world better than the plain and simple truth of Gods Word.  It isn't complicated.  It is only MADE complicated by Satan.  Just adding "an appearance" to muddy the water.  The children are turned to their fatherS.  
 

Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with


Do other bibles read like mine does??  

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

REVELATION 2:10  FEAR NONE OF THOSE THINGS WHICH THOU SHALT SUFFER; BEHOLD, THE DEVIL SHALL CAST SOME OF YOU INTO PRISON, THAT YE MAY BE TRIED; AND YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION TEN DAYS; BE THOU FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH, AND I WILL GIVE THEE A CROWN OF LIFE. 

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

TO WHOM?  THE CHURCHES.  WHAT ARE ALL THE CHURCHES TOLD TO DO?  OVERCOME.  And what is the reward?  Not to be hurt by the second death.  If there is a PRe TRIB rapture, and they haven't overcome, then the second death could still hurt them because it is made very clear only those who do overcome receive the rewards promised.  Is there any place in the bible that SPLITS THE CHURCH UP INTO PARTS?   This part will be staying,  this part will be raptured.  How does God decide?  Maybe if you are descendants of Israel you stay.  What if you only THINK you are a gentile but you are actually genetically a descendant of one of the sands of the sea, or stars of the sky, or dust of the earth?   Probablity would have that to be the truth, with you being a "CHRIST" man and all.  And if not genetically then what about that "adopted" in.  What about that no difference between Jew and greek?

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All become ONE BODY.  Except, apparently,  for Pre trib rapture when those blinded for the sake of the gentiles must stay, but the gentiles exit early.  Will there be another wedding at the end for those who will remain and  OVERCOME AS INSTRUCTED?  Where is that found?  So those to whom salvation was opened,  really have no part in Gods Plan except not have any law and not to be tested and become the wife????  How are they going to teach others if they know nothing themselves?  HOW does that come across as JUST?  
 

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

How does "keep thee from" become "come to get you, take you away and marry you"??  Why shouldn't the church be tried?  Do you take an untested weapon into battle?  Do you take an untested soul to teach?  

 

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


As I read about these 7 churches, I notice that it isn't the "church" that overcomes it is the "he".  Wonder if there will be any "church of God away or apart from the two witnesses.  

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I will cover these first in short order and answer the latter one in MORE DEPTH.....

Like most Hebrew words its meaning is designated by sentence structure or via the information therein [within] that structure.

Shalom, Revelation Man.

I think you mean "within its context." And, with that much I can agree.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The earth was WITHOUT FORM and VOID means there was no earth, the Darkness was on the face of the deep PROVES ZERO Stars had formed yet.

Actually, the earth - the ground - the soil - being "without form"  and "void [of life]" means that there WAS a planet already! However, the earth was under water ("the deep" is Hebrew word "t-howm" meaning the primeval "sea!").

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The EARTH means THE LAND being spoken about, which is why Nebuchadnezzar could be said to have Conquered the WHOLE EARTH, it meant the whole of the Land he had Conquered, you see, the INFO and the STRUCTURE of the sentence us all encompassing. In Gen 1:1-3 we are told about God's CREATION, the earth and Heavens, in a overview, then given a play by play so to speak, the earth was NOT YET THERE {VOID} and there was Darkness of [on] the face of the deep, THEN God said let there be light. 

Wow! You've got SOME things right here, but then choose to ignore what you had right for your own agenda! I find that VERY disingenuous. And, once again, "and void" ("vaVohuw") does NOT mean "NOT YET THERE!!!" It means it was "EMPTY!" To say, "IT was empty," implies IT was THERE! Can't you see that? And, context tells us that He means specifically that it was "EMPTY OF LIFE!" Why is that so hard for you to accept?!

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

What is funny brother is this PROVES God's Word is correct to Atheists, but because it doesn't prove your belief you are sad. I don't get that. You should be happy this proves the Atheists wrong about God, because this proves God was 100 percent correct in the Holy Bible via the Creation events. Yet, you would rather be right than win the Atheist converts you could gain with these facts. I marvel at this kind of thinking tbh, sir.

God is 100% correct regardless! Atheists, who say that there is no God, aren't convinced of your interpretation any more than they are of mine! You have a rather silly argument here. By succumbing to the error of Evolutionary atheism, you think it "softens the blow" for the atheist to accept a God he doesn't believe in? That, sir, is a NON SEQUITUR! It "does NOT follow!" And, THAT'S a logical FALLACY!

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We will go to Heaven at the Rapture, whether you like it or not. We are Spirit men just like God is a Spirit, we have a body, we will shed this Sin body and gain Glorious bodies in Heaven. Jesus said, "I to to my Father's House and prepare a PLACE FOR YOU....."

There is a "rapture" as recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; however, let's look at this passage carefully, step-by-step:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For ...

if we believe that Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus (Yeshua`) WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that ...

we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (Yeshua`) 
shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 

16 For the Lord himself (Yeshua`) shall descend from heaven (the sky)
with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God: and ...

the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and

so shall we ever be with the Lord.

NOTICE! Paul NEVER said where we are going after that! He only said that we would REMAIN with Yeshua`, wherever HE goes! People make HUGE ASSUMPTIONS about "going back to 'Heaven' with Him" when the passage NEVER SAYS THAT WILL HAPPEN!!!

What the passage DOES say is that "the Lord Himself shall descend from the sky!" In other words, Yeshua` is BACK!!! Why would He return to "Heaven?"

For you to say, "we will shed this Sin body and gain Glorious bodies in Heaven," tells me that you have bought into the Christoplatonism that Randy Alcorn talks about in "Appendix A: Christoplatonism's False Assumptions" in his book, Heaven. It CERTAINLY does NOT come from the Bible!

And, we should also carefully look at Yeshua`s words in John 14:1-4:

John 14:1-4 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 

2 In my Father's house are many mansions (Greek: monai pollai = "many rooms"): if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you. 
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and
receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also. 
4 And whither I go ye know (You know where I'm going), and the way ye know (and you know the way there).

Again, NOTICE! Yeshua` did NOT say that He was TAKING us to those places He will have prepared for us! Instead, He said ...
1. that He was COMING BACK,
2. that He would RECEIVE US TO HIMSELF, and
3. that WHERE HE WOULD BE, WE WOULD BE THERE, TOO!

He NEVER SAID He was "taking us to His Father's House!!!" Again, He JUST GOT BACK! Why would He return to "Heaven?" Again, this is A HUGE ASSUMPTION that people make!

John tells us in the book of Revelation that the city that people CALL "Heaven," based on the description of that city, is the NEW JERUSALEM! It comes HERE! We don't go to it!

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

We are NEVER told in the Bible to anticipate "going to 'Heaven!'" We are told to anticipate the RESURRECTION, when our PHYSICAL bodies are redeemed! The word "soul" is the word chosen to translate the Hebrew word "nefesh," which means "a breathing creature!" That's hard to have if you don't have a body!

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We know the Universe is 13.7 Billion years old, we can calculate and we have mapped out the Universe.

No, we DON'T "know the Universe is 13.7 Billion years old!" Did you even research where your "map" came from?!

The honest scientists have CLAIMED that they base this interpretation on the "evolutionary model of the Big Bang!"

God created LIGHT!!! That includes microwave emissions! And, He did so with NO sources! AFTERWARD, the Scriptures say, "He made the stars also!"

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

These are CONSTANTS........The Laws of Nature do not change.

To which "constants" are you referring? That electromagnetic energy is produced by a source? You DON'T KNOW THAT!!!! Sorry, but one cannot PROVE IT! And, the Bible claims otherwise.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its a Dome in that its ROUND like a Dome thus its called a Biospheric dome. We can call it an Orange if you like, it doesn't change the facts that I am speaking about, these kind of quibbles only distract from the facts.

It's more like a FUZZY globe, thinning out from the surface of the globe! And, it DOES make a difference! A "dome" suggests an image like some have suggested ancient man looked at the night sky - a dome of black with holes it it allowing the light from 'Heaven' to shine through! But, that's not how our atmosphere works! It gradually thins until it is so sparse as to be the vacuum of space!

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, you have no real authority in any case. You are not the last word in eschatological matters. I'll stick with Jesus and reject personal interpretations.

You will stick with you same errors you have been making. That is what people do, they let pride override the facts. 

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Secret king always wins.

Truth is the word of God.  Since you can't or won't back up what you say with direct scripture quotes, I can only conclude that your understanding of prophecy is created in your own image and likeness.  Believe what you want.  Truth is immutable and wisdom is justified by her deeds.

And you are wrong on the Rapture, and MANY THINGS via Prophecy. I have been preaching close to 35 years, and I guess I should defer to you on these things. Message board guys always have the answers. 

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

I think you mean "within its context." And, with that much I can agree.

Actually, the earth - the ground - the soil - being "without form"  and "void [of life]" means that there WAS a planet already! However, the earth was under water ("the deep" is Hebrew word "t-howm" meaning the primeval "sea!").

Wow! You've got SOME things right here, but then choose to ignore what you had right for your own agenda! I find that VERY disingenuous. And, once again, "and void" ("vaVohuw") does NOT mean "NOT YET THERE!!!" It means it was "EMPTY!" To say, "IT was empty," implies IT was THERE! Can't you see that? And, context tells us that He means specifically that it was "EMPTY OF LIFE!" Why is that so hard for you to accept?!

God is 100% correct regardless! Atheists, who say that there is no God, aren't convinced of your interpretation any more than they are of mine! You have a rather silly argument here. By succumbing to the error of Evolutionary atheism, you think it "softens the blow" for the atheist to accept a God he doesn't believe in? That, sir, is a NON SEQUITUR! It "does NOT follow!" And, THAT'S a logical FALLACY!

There is a "rapture" as recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; however, let's look at this passage carefully, step-by-step:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For ...

if we believe that Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus (Yeshua`) WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that ...

we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (Yeshua`) 
shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 

16 For the Lord himself (Yeshua`) shall descend from heaven (the sky)
with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and
with the trump of God: and ...

the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and

so shall we ever be with the Lord.

NOTICE! Paul NEVER said where we are going after that! He only said that we would REMAIN with Yeshua`, wherever HE goes! People make HUGE ASSUMPTIONS about "going back to 'Heaven' with Him" when the passage NEVER SAYS THAT WILL HAPPEN!!!

What the passage DOES say is that "the Lord Himself shall descend from the sky!" In other words, Yeshua` is BACK!!! Why would He return to "Heaven?"

For you to say, "we will shed this Sin body and gain Glorious bodies in Heaven," tells me that you have bought into the Christoplatonism that Randy Alcorn talks about in "Appendix A: Christoplatonism's False Assumptions" in his book, Heaven. It CERTAINLY does NOT come from the Bible!

And, we should also carefully look at Yeshua`s words in John 14:1-4:

John 14:1-4 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 

2 In my Father's house are many mansions (Greek: monai pollai = "many rooms"): if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you. 
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again, and
receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also. 
4 And whither I go ye know (You know where I'm going), and the way ye know (and you know the way there).

Again, NOTICE! Yeshua` did NOT say that He was TAKING us to those places He will have prepared for us! Instead, He said ...
1. that He was COMING BACK,
2. that He would RECEIVE US TO HIMSELF, and
3. that WHERE HE WOULD BE, WE WOULD BE THERE, TOO!

He NEVER SAID He was "taking us to His Father's House!!!" Again, He JUST GOT BACK! Why would He return to "Heaven?" Again, this is A HUGE ASSUMPTION that people make!

John tells us in the book of Revelation that the city that people CALL "Heaven," based on the description of that city, is the NEW JERUSALEM! It comes HERE! We don't go to it!

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

We are NEVER told in the Bible to anticipate "going to 'Heaven!'" We are told to anticipate the RESURRECTION, when our PHYSICAL bodies are redeemed! The word "soul" is the word chosen to translate the Hebrew word "nefesh," which means "a breathing creature!" That's hard to have if you don't have a body!

No, we DON'T "know the Universe is 13.7 Billion years old!" Did you even research where your "map" came from?!

The honest scientists have CLAIMED that they base this interpretation on the "evolutionary model of the Big Bang!"

God created LIGHT!!! That includes microwave emissions! And, He did so with NO sources! AFTERWARD, the Scriptures say, "He made the stars also!"

To which "constants" are you referring? That electromagnetic energy is produced by a source? You DON'T KNOW THAT!!!! Sorry, but one cannot PROVE IT! And, the Bible claims otherwise.

It's more like a FUZZY globe, thinning out from the surface of the globe! And, it DOES make a difference! A "dome" suggests an image like some have suggested ancient man looked at the night sky - a dome of black with holes it it allowing the light from 'Heaven' to shine through! But, that's not how our atmosphere works! It gradually thins until it is so sparse as to be the vacuum of space!

What can I say, its a waste of time going back and forth. I feel silly even having to argue the point that the earth and Universe is just 6000 years old. That's nothing on you brother, you are a very nice guy, I just don't feel I can take this argument serious. It is what it is. God Bless.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

You will stick with you same errors you have been making. That is what people do, they let pride override the facts. 

That right there, that thing. The attempt at shaming. I can fully believe you were a preacher for decades. So used to having the flock hang on your every word, unchallenged. Now when challenged and you aren't able to sway someone you resort to the tried and true method of shaming. It's worked so well for you hasn't it? I've seen it many times. Leaders of the church accusing other of having demons, hearing voices, and the all powerful tactic of accusing them of pride; and all because congregants dared to voice the truth as it is written.

Preachers for the most part seek to humble the flock under their guidance and not direct them to humble themselves under the hand of the Lord. I have personal experience with this, I'm a witness to it and we see it all the time and it's growing. I don't know how pastors ever got to be the leaders of congregations anyway. They are not equipped to lead. Apostles and Prophets are the two offices at the head of the congregation. But we seem to screw up the simplest things with gleeful ease.

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

So our duty is to one another and to Jesus. Just read Ephesians. Again and again. You'll get it.

"This is what people do..." But not you. You're immune. Perfect. God talks directly you even superseding the written Word. 

Not sure you have the spiritual insight or the moral high ground. 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

And you are wrong on the Rapture, and MANY THINGS via Prophecy. I have been preaching close to 35 years, and I guess I should defer to you on these things. Message board guys always have the answers. 

35 years of falling down a rabbit hole. You ain't the standard for the interpretation of prophecy. Know what is? IF IT COMES TO PASS. That is the one and only standard to know the word of prophecy is from God. What will you say and do when the beast rises before any 'rapture'? 

You're on a message board. You're a guy. Ergo, you're a message board guy. 

Do your ears ever hear what your lips speak?

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

And you are wrong on the Rapture, and MANY THINGS via Prophecy. I have been preaching close to 35 years, and I guess I should defer to you on these things. Message board guys always have the answers. 

I do hope you come to realize that it's not all about you.  Until then, secret king will always win.

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have been preaching close to 35 years, and I guess I should defer to you on these things. Message board guys always have the answers. 

I and others on this board have been teaching for a lot longer than that. There are a whole lot of grayhairs (and no hairs!) on this board, make no mistake.

Age does not always bring wisdom. Sometimes it just brings stubbornness. I believe, if I remember correctly, that JoeCanada preached pre-Trib for 40 years before having his eyes opened, and now teaches against it. He has written a classic work of rebuttal against it, you might ask him for it.