2300 days

[Sister]

18 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Sister, first let me apologize -- I am not sure of the process that takes place when I hit "quote" v. "reply" or what ever I happened to hit when I respond - sorry for that confusion on my part.  Consequently, before I address you question re: Jeremiah 25, would you be so kind as to :

1) If I want to respond to a comment from anyone, AND I would like others to also receive that response - say dougg as well, would you please inform me just how to do that?  I would rather want to have those that might be directly involved in the discussion receive it as apposed to going to a "general" posting and they might not be aware of its being sent - thank you in advance!!!

Hi Charlie744

I see iamlamad has shown you how to hit the "quote" button on the bottom of the page.  The whole quote should show up.  If you want to split the quote by answering in sections, just leave what you want there, then cut out the rest of the quote and paste under it.  After you've pasted, highlight that part then select the two comma's symbol on the the top bar to the left of the smiley face. This will put the quote in a box.  You can go back and answer in between the boxed quotes.

Alternatively, you can go to the post and just highlight the section you want to answer.  A message will pop up asking you if you want to "quote selection" - just click on that message and scroll down -you will find it in a new post all boxed up ready for you to reply.  You can go back and forth to original quote and repeat sections if it's on the same page.  Just make sure the curser on your new page is in the right position or your quote will go where ever you left your curser last.

I can only do this way if the original post is on the same page.  If it's a few pages back, then it doesn't work for me and I lose everything.

Hope this helps.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Sister

[Sister]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Now, I have read Jeremiah 25 and thank you for that reference.  My only response regarding your mentioning it is that I do not believe the 2300 days refers to the "end of times" but to the Messiah Himself. In no way do I believe that there will NOT be such tremendous turmoil and horror "at the end of days", but this (2300 days) relates directly to the coming Messiah and how He will cleanse the sanctuary.  He must fulfill His mission  - those things He must do at His first coming.  He indeed will eliminate the sacrificial system and ALL its purposes and meanings (which were all meant to point to Him). The physical Temple, the sacrifices, the cleansing have all been fulfilled by Him. No need to continue with any of the old system. No more Jew, Greek, etc., that distinguish or separates mankind from the One True God.

Hi Charlie744

Thank you for your reply.  I would like to answer this part first.

Ok, so you believe that the 2300 days is the leading up to Christ on the cross, and on that day he cleansed the sanctuary, so prophecy fulfilled?

I am not sure if you are looking for someone to agree with your view or seeking an alternative answer?

I have an alternative view Charlie that the 2300 days are the final days leading up to Christ's return based on what is written in that chapter. 

When the angel gave Daniel the explanation he explained that;

 Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

If all this was in the past when Christ was on the cross, and evil came to the full, then that would mean that evil since Christ's resurrection has lessened? 

I think Jesus clarified that in the parable about letting the wheat and the tares grow together until the time of the harvest - which can only mean that evil has to grow to the full, then be punished.

My other point on this is that this king of fierce countenance that shall stand up can be none other than the False Prophet (son of perdition) as told to us in other parts of Daniel, 2 thess and the book of Revelation.

  Daniel 8:24   And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

  Daniel 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
 

Only the FP is going to lead that war against Christ.  That's his final destination.

 

My second point is that the cleansing of the sanctuary can only happen at Jesus' return, because the first sanctuary was only physical which is confirmed in Hebrews chapter 9;

Hebrews 9:1   Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:2   For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

 
If we read on in that chapter, that first sanctuary which was set up did not mention any defiled priest offering the sacrifices, but that what they accomplished in the service of God was only a symbol of what was to come - Christ.  That old tradition was clean because the order came from God and only a stepping stone for 'the spiritual sanctuary' to be 'established'.

 

  Hebrews 9:11   But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

My point is, that there are two sanctuaries mentioned here.  The old sanctuary was the physical (worldly one) and the new sanctuary is spiritual (heavenly). "The spiritual sanctuary" for men did not exist whilst the old sanctuary was in effect.  Therefore Christ did not come to cleanse that old worldly sanctuary, for it was good and served it's purpose until the new sanctuary be established.

Christ being the head of the church left his ministry to continue in the hands of his apostles.  They are our true teachers set before us which Christ sent to give instructions and set the precedent for the spiritual sanctuary on earth.  They are one with Christ, chosen, and what they taught we are to obey.  Since then Satan has sent his men to enter that spiritual sanctuary through distorting the truth and taking over the teachings contrary to what we were first given.  Sometimes it's obvious, and other times so subtle.  Regardless these men have appointed themselves over-seers of the heavenly sanctuary on earth and have caused many divisions.  Therefore that sanctuary "on earth" is now defiled, and must be cleansed.  They must be outed out for they have led many astray.  Christ will do this at his return and restore the sanctuary to it's former glory which consists of pure truth. 

The letters to the seven churches in Revelation can confirm the defilement of Christ's sanctuary showing the enemy has entered.

 

 
 

[Charlie744]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Charlie, when you wish to answer a post, go to the bottom and hit "Quote," then wait for the post to fill in.  Thank you very much for your help with this....Charlie

 

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Question, if the 70th week were already fulfilled, or any part of it already fulfilled, why then would God show the entire week to John and it be written in Revelation around 95 AD? 

I greatly apologize for not being able to answer this as I have not studied Revelation until I complete Daniel. As I may have mentioned earlier, I am trying to interpret Daniel as if Revelation was not yet written.... Once I believe I have completed Daniel then I would like to go onto Revelation --- and although I have not gone there I do realize they both must fit together.  I did mention it is completely impossible for someone's interpretations of Revelation to match with my interpretations I believe I am finding in Daniel.... there is no way they should match given that most of today's interpretations of Daniel include such characters and emphasis on Antiochus, etc. I certainly DO understand how you must receive this -- I am clearly a novice and have limited understanding of the Scriptures YET I somehow am able to tell myself that my / these interpretations trump all that currently exist.... I do apologize for this but there is one thing that keeps me on this path is that the prophecies within Daniel are two fold - they are meant to reveal mankind in whatever kingdom comes to the surface and how they treat each other and develop their world and gods WITHOUT the One True God.  Then, He begins to reveal how He will come to the earth within His Plan of Salvation, reveal Himself, identify His Plan AND our reaction to Him.  The main character in the 4th kingdom according to chapter 8 is the "little horn". He will arise from the 4th kingdom (pagan Rome) and not out of a division of the 3rd kingdom of Greece.  Pagan Rome will come out of one of the territories of post Alexander. This is in keeping with the "little horn" rising out from the beast of the 4th kingdom in chapter 7. There is no mention or need to mention the minor actors or conflicts between the last two kingdoms - hence, Daniel ensures we recognize and only consider the "little horn" which transitions or comes right after Alexander in chapter 8. Chapter 7 identifies the 4 kingdoms in succession. This sets the identities of the "kings" which can now be identified in chapter 8.  Chapter 8 is interested in the kings of the 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 7. Antiochus is not a king within the kingdoms of chapter 7, he is not the "little horn" of the 4th kingdom of chapter 8. Just because he came to rule and harm the Jews and "temporarily" stop the sacrificial system (and of course allow or cause of pig to corrupt the sanctuary), does not allow him to be considered to be the "little horn" of the 4th kingdom . In fact, I have read other articles from very talented scholars who are just as sincere that Titus was the "little horn" because he "permanently" destroyed the Temple and halted all future sacrifices.  Although I am not an historian or scholar by ANY means, I have always been able to be a very successful problem solver - but that was in the financial / tax / accounting corporate arena.  Although this is a very different subject matter, the same principles do apply when you attempt to resolve / unpack any problem. After reading many  / most of the interpretations (one chapter or even one verse at a time of the Book of Daniel), it was quite clear that there were approximately 2 maybe 3 major interpretations - all from very talented scholars and theologians, etc. Each group believed they had the answer and the correct interpretation and would provide a litany of verses from the old and new testament to support their belief.  How could someone like me argue with these folks or their detailed and well documented studies?  I could not begin to!  So I decided to start at the beginning of each chapter and verse and learn not only what others have said they mean but then see if that makes sense (to me).  Why did God write this or have this particular verse or word or sentence in there.... because He does NOT use "fillers" or words just to link His other important thoughts together. Everything  / every word He writes through Daniel has a very special and specific purpose... 

Regarding the 70th week, it seems clear to me that He is giving us a period in time beginning with the time the Jews left Babylon until His first coming.  We have the Jews going back to Israel, the Temple will be rebuilt and the Messiah will come. Chapter 9 24 -27 clearly tell us those things which will be fulfilled within the 70 week period - the Messiah will arrive and be baptized at the beginning of the 70th week, He will be cut -off and crucified in the midst of the week (3.5 years). There are so many who refuse to see this most important prophecy and stand firmly that the "he" in 9:27 refers to some evil antichrist that will come to power some maybe 2000 years in the future.... and that the last week is transported some 2000 years in the future where he will enter into an agreement with the Jews --- this was first introduced by the Jesuits around the 15 or 1600's to counteract the reformation.  Prior to this the "little horn" was determined to be the papacy... the Catholics wanted this identification to be removed from them. Regardless of when or how this theory came about, this completed removes the Messiah from those important prophecies within Daniel 9, and we attach them to some evil little actor like Antiochus that we "fit" into these verses.  I can assure you, these verses speak about the Messiah and His coming and His crucifixion. Chapter 8's 2300 days and evenings tie perfectly within this since the Messiah will come and fulfill all that is prophecized about Him  - the six things in 9:24.  Why we would not seek to find Him within His prophecies  ---I will never know!

 

  Where else has God used someone to write history? God proves Himself by writing prophecy - foretelling future events.  As I have said before, you are simply mistaken. If I were you, I would start over, just taking Daniel and John at their words. For example, Daniel chapter 8 is written so a fifth grader could understand it. They would not try to second guess or read between the lines and imagine what is not there and not the intent of the Author.

Sorry but I am not sure I understand your comment....Regarding your comment that Daniel 8 is written so a 5th grader could understand it... I do not agree at all! Mentioned above, there are at least 3 different  / major interpretations from very talented scholars who believe their interpretation is correct. I may not read at a 5th grade level but I can assure you only some of Daniel is written for all to see clearly and easily - this would be true for the majority of the verses and prophecies found in the historical section of Daniel - first 6 chapters. Then He begins to hide some of His prophecies from those 5th graders and desires that those who want to truly spend time with Him and His Word will study His Word and this would require we drill down and not simply look at the words at the surface level - if we did this, we would simply try and match the words to our history books and not look at His spiritual message.  And He has kept much of the difficult passages for us to properly interpret to the 4th kingdom.  The first 3 kingdoms are a mulligan, if you will, he sends us some softballs to get ready for His fastballs - the verses that will speak to His coming and are not historical in nature. 

 

If you go back to Daniel 9 and start over, notice that the first 69 weeks are OVER when Jesus is cut off - but Daniel has not yet started the 70th week. In face, Daniel himself, backed by the Holy Spirit, inserted a GAP after the 69 weeks and before the 70th. Then, to make sure we understand that gap, he included the 70 AD destruction inside that gap.

I would ask that you might take a look at my response above for the 70th week. I agree the first 69 weeks end right before His baptism and then the final week begins on the day He is baptized.  The clock now begins for the last week or 7 years. He will perform all the requirements as High Priest, the Sacrificial Lamb, and the Temple of God (stones thrown down outside the city gates). The prediction found in chapter 9 that "he" will be cut off in the midst of the week is certain and clear.  His ministry begins and will end within 3.5 years when He is crucified...  Now, the sacrificial system, the physical Temple, the High Priest is no longer necessary. He has instituted a completely NEW COVENANT! The physical Temple is just a vacant building now - even though the Jews who did not accept Jesus would THINK the old sacrificial system still was in play.

 

Therefore, Jesus was NOT cutoff in the middle of the week. The entire 70th week is future and God will use it to end this age for the Jews.  The majority of believers in the world today know this to be truth.

There is NO way the verses in chapter 9 are NOT speaking of the Messiah - this is the most important prophetic verses in the old testament.  I don't know or am not concerned should the majority of believers in the world believe in the gap theory ..... I can tell you and this is completely WITHOUT any attempt to put down ANYONE, it has been my experience (unfortunately), that maybe 90% of the world are followers and not thinkers. This is both within the financial arena or any other industry or community. Most people want to be told what to think! Sorry  to bring this up but there are approximately 1.3B Roman Catholics who largely accept ANY teaching or view that comes out of the vatican.  So, does that mean because of the large number of Catholics, who may also contend that "he" in 9:27 speaks of some future antichrist to arise and enter into an agreement the Jews have the correct interpretation?  No, they happen to accept blindly whatever they are told---- I am sure most of them have never even read Daniel or Revelation and certainly have not studied either..... The papacy is the "little horn" and they have followed him and is the one in chapter 7 and 8 and later he is given much attention and ink in chapter 11.

Finally, please note that I do understand your thoughts and beliefs - and they do indeed follow one of the most predominate interpretations of the day... and I am NOT attempting to convert you or change your thinking.... I originally came on to this website to find someone/ anyone who has more knowledge and understanding than myself to help me unpack Daniel 11.  I have completed the first 10 chapters using my approach which attempts to learn if the prophetic verses are speaking about Him first and not the secular...... but chapter 11 is much more difficult than the first 10 combined!  The reason I brought up the  question of 2300 days (which I believe I have found how it relates to the Messiah in chapter 8) is because one of the individuals who responded  to my request for help on 11 made a comment on 2300 days and I thought I might establish a nice working relationship / communication with him on this subject and continue onto 11.   Anyway, I do appreciate all the knowledge you bring... I certainly have and will continue to learn from your comments but I am solid on how the prophetic verses in the first 10 chapters speak or do not speak directly to the  Messiah and His first coming.  This / He is the most important event / person on the face of the earth - Daniel is the most prophetic book of the bible just prior to His coming... This is why Daniel was written  - to predict and compliment all the other scriptures (Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.) of the coming Messiah....  Again, thank you for the time and consideration you have put into the responses and best wishes always, Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Charlie744

Thank you for your reply.  I would like to answer this part first.

Ok, so you believe that the 2300 days is the leading up to Christ on the cross, and on that day he cleansed the sanctuary, so prophecy fulfilled?  Yes, the prophecies in Daniel that speak of His first coming have indeed been fulfilled.  I believe He would fulfill those 6 requirements found in chapter 9:24...

 

3 hours ago, Sister said:

I am not sure if you are looking for someone to agree with your view or seeking an alternative answer? Sister, no! I am not looking for someone to agree with me at all -  I am very comfortable with this interpretation. And I also am not looking for an alternative answer - I have completed my review / layman's study of the first 10 chapters... and yes, they do not look anything like those that are "out there". This does not make my interpretations correct just because they are different... but I believe they focus on the Messiah (when they are meant to and not to some unimportant secular ruler of despot like Antiochus).  There IS a definite transition within the latter chapters of Daniel that require we interpret them speaking of the Messiah and not an historical individual found in our history books. For over the past 2000 years, there are approximately 2 -3 primary interpretations - at that is among hundreds of true scholars and academics and extremely talented students of the bible- but nothing has really changed over that period and the 2 -3 major interpretations don't agree with each other yet they all believe they have the correct interpretation.  But there is ONE thing they ALL have in common - they ALL attempt to interpret Daniel's prophetic verses - even those in the latter chapters from a historical and or secular viewpoint - what I have called a "6 ft" level.  They ALL attempt to pull out their trusted history books at identify some character or series of events that fit these verses -and they do a good job of it....... but Daniel would not have been written by the hand of God only to provide us with some history lesson of mankind..... He wanted to show us what we are like and how He sees us when we do not have Him in our life (first 3 kingdoms). It would not matter how many more kingdoms or kings would come to power over the next 2000 years - we would never change our behaviour. So He is going to reveal through Daniel, through the 4th kingdom a major change in man's history.  He is telling us the Messiah will come within this 4th kingdom, what He will /must accomplish, who will and who will not accept Him, He will tell us / predict the coming of the "little horn" (papacy) who will attempt to take His kingdom / kingship on earth... This is the most important prophecy He could possibly give us.... but most have taken the easy road and are insistent on "humanizing" these "Messianic prophecies". Instead of interpreting what the Messiah will accomplish and also His crucifixion (cut off in the midst of the last week), we decide these verses might identify some minor actor like Antiochus and when other verses don't quite fit together quite nicely, we then decide that the last week in Daniel's 70 weeks must  be thrust forward some 2000 years -since we do not know what to do with it and if we jump ahead to some verses in Revelation, we can somehow join to two thoughts together and create a new / acceptable story. My desire is to try and unpack / interpret Daniel without Revelation (but I am well aware these two books must fit together seamlessly).

I have an alternative view Charlie that the 2300 days are the final days leading up to Christ's return based on what is written in that chapter. 

When the angel gave Daniel the explanation he explained that;

 Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

For me, this clearly speaks of the "little horn". In the "latter time of their kingdom" - there is only one kingdom left - the 4th kingdom which is / was pagan Rome.. In the latter part of the pagan Rome (4th kingdom), this evil one will indeed come to power. I do not think this speaks of the "end times, but the coming  of the "little horn".

If all this was in the past when Christ was on the cross, and evil came to the full, then that would mean that evil since Christ's resurrection has lessened? 

Forgive me... I am missing the connection here. No, evil has not lessened and is only getting worse as a result of this "little horn" and our failure to accept Jesus as the Messiah and obey HIM.  There is NO doubt that 8:23 is a very complicated verse and I wish I had the answer - I have indeed seem more than a few different interpretations on this.... all somewhat confusing and many times they are not able to "fit"with the surrounding verses.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sister said:

I think Jesus clarified that in the parable about letting the wheat and the tares grow together until the time of the harvest - which can only mean that evil has to grow to the full, then be punished.

This is sooooooo true.

My other point on this is that this king of fierce countenance that shall stand up can be none other than the False Prophet (son of perdition) as told to us in other parts of Daniel, 2 thess and the book of Revelation.

Once again, we are clearly on the same page here -- but the king of fierce countenance is the "little horn"  of chapter 7 &8. This is the one who will do so much damage to His people - those who would accept Him as their Messiah and those who would corrupt His Word - papacy. For me, the latter parts / verses of Daniel are speaking to the mission and coming of the Messiah, the coming of the"little horn" who will contend for His kingdom and power and glory on earth DURING  the last 2000 years of earth's existence. Doesn't it make much more sense that He will use Daniel to reveal all of this  - FOR US so we can succeed and save ourselves FOR the last 2000 years?  But many / most attempt to send these valuable prophecies forward 2000 years and where we fail to see the intent of purpose of His prophecies..... The most important battle is a spiritual one  - He has told us that and this battle began at His crucifixion and it has been going on for 2000 years... certainly, He intended to reveal this and how we could succeed THROUGHOUT  the battle. I can not imagine He would come to the end of days and say to us:,"maybe I should have told you how to deal with the "little horn" WHILE THE BATTLE WAS GOING ON INSTEAD OF GIVING YOU THESE PROPHECIES THAT SPOKE TO THE END OF TIMES" , SORRY, MY BAD!

 

  Daniel 8:24   And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

This is the "little horn" / papacy that will take power from pagan Rome without the sword.  Yes, they  will certainly take control of the armies later on and kill and destroy millions who do not accept the Pope as god on earth and his infallibility or those who do not accept to be converted to Catholicism, but the papacy would take power in the beginning without war.

  Daniel 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Yes, this is clearly the Pope / papacy.  He will without the scriptures from the common people and have them look only to the RC church for understanding and interpretation of the scriptures. He, the Pope will and HAS declared himself to be god on earth.... The Pope has even declared that his interpretations are superior to Jesus Himself!!! He has changed the 10 commandments (Word of God written by God Himself)... who or  what could be more descriptive and damaging to His Plan of Salvation that this individual who commands almost 1.3 B RC Catholics and desires to bring back in the RC Church the Protestant churches.  The papacy has also / recently accepted the Koran as a holy book and that their god and his (papacy) god ARE ONE AND THE SAME (we just call him in a different name).. Now Sister, can you possibly imagine someone more evil on the planet earth - why should anyone think the evil one will only come at the end of time - he has been here all along doing so much damage. 
 

Only the FP is going to lead that war against Christ.  That's his final destination.

Once again, you are correct! But the war has been going on since the crucifixion! Remember this is not a physical war, but  a spiritual war for our souls.... Either we accept and obey God's Word or someone else (doesn't really matter who .. if they preach something other than His Word, they are against Him). The FP is the one who has been against God's Word for almost 2000 years. 

My second point is that the cleansing of the sanctuary can only happen at Jesus' return, because the first sanctuary was only physical which is confirmed in Hebrews chapter 9;

The first sanctuary would be cleansed by the One who was perfect - the perfect High Priest. After He cleansed the sanctuary by His perfect sacrifice and also serving as our High Priest, there is no further need for the sacrificial system or a physical Temple -  it all goes away.  He had come and instituted an completely NEW COVENANT (SYSTEM).  His sacrifice was indeed accepted by God the Father. 

 

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Hebrews 9:1   Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:2   For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

 
If we read on in that chapter, that first sanctuary which was set up did not mention any defiled priest offering the sacrifices, but that what they accomplished in the service of God was only a symbol of what was to come - Christ.  That old tradition was clean because the order came from God and only a stepping stone for 'the spiritual sanctuary' to be 'established'.

The sacrificial system (Temple, High Priest role, Lambs, furniture and fixtures within the sanctuary), ALL pointed to the coming Messiah. When the Messiah arrived He would replace / fulfill all the requirements, functions and purposes of them that pointed to Him / His coming. You are so right, all of the old pointed to the One coming - the physical was replaced and perfected by the One coming.

  Hebrews 9:11   But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

My point is, that there are two sanctuaries mentioned here.  The old sanctuary was the physical (worldly one) and the new sanctuary is spiritual (heavenly). "The spiritual sanctuary" for men did not exist whilst the old sanctuary was in effect.  Therefore Christ did not come to cleanse that old worldly sanctuary, for it was good and served it's purpose until the new sanctuary be established.

I agree! The old simply was a template of the real. It was put in place to teach us His ways. The Messiah did not come to cleanse the physical sanctuary or be another sacrificial lamb or just another High Priest performing the world steps or requirements of the Passover.  Once He came, He was the Temple, He was the perfect sacrificial lamb, He was the High Priest..... The physical Temple / Sanctuary was not cleansed by the Messiah... the Temple / Sanctuary He came to cleanse was the world (the physical Temple was just symbolic).  The sacrificial lambs were symbolic of sin being taken way ALL sin - past and future. And this would apply to ALL who believed in Him (that would be the world and no longer a physical building in one place on earth).

Christ being the head of the church left his ministry to continue in the hands of his apostles.  They are our true teachers set before us which Christ sent to give instructions and set the precedent for the spiritual sanctuary on earth.  They are one with Christ, chosen, and what they taught we are to obey.  Since then Satan has sent his men to enter that spiritual sanctuary through distorting the truth and taking over the teachings contrary to what we were first given.  Sometimes it's obvious, and other times so subtle.  Regardless these men have appointed themselves over-seers of the heavenly sanctuary on earth and have caused many divisions.  Therefore that sanctuary "on earth" is now defiled, and must be cleansed.  They must be outed out for they have led many astray.  Christ will do this at his return and restore the sanctuary to it's former glory which consists of pure truth. 

The letters to the seven churches in Revelation can confirm the defilement of Christ's sanctuary showing the enemy has entered.

Again, I do not disagree with you! But His Word has indeed been quite corrupted by man (little horn).  Anyone who can possibly put themselves on the same level as God and think to be able to change His commandments can be no less than Satan himself /his disciple. I can assure you that there is ONE who will be there whenever and where ever anyone needs them - especially when they desire to understand His Word (Scriptures) and that is the Holy Spirit. If anyone is confused, He will clear things up -NO MAN OR one of man's religious organizations.  If that were not true, He would not needed to have sent His Holy Spirit to us after His crucifixion. He had already given His Word to the Jews for them to honor and preach His Word to all the world / gentiles. Instead, they kept His Word to themselves and also they would also turn away and practice idolatry -time and time again. 

After His crucifixion, there is NO way He was going to once again leave His Word and man's salvation to another religious group. If the Jews could not succeed and they could not (although no other group of people would have been able to perform better - by no stretch), He was certainly not going to repeat this by allowing another group to take possession of His Word and be responsible for their salvation.  No, this time, each of us would be able to go directly to God Himself (Holy Spirit) and have a one on one relationship with God Himself - He was going hands on and would not leave us alone with some religious group that would (and certainly did) corrupt His Word. So yes, the "church" is important and all can and do learn so much from within our churches, but there is ONLY ONE who will never lie to us and who will never leave us. We are each  able to have a relationship with HIm - with no boundaries...except the ones we limit with Him.  But each of us is also now going to be accountable to Him since He has offered and given us His everything.  We will not be able to tell Him," well my church told me this and they preached in Your Name --- how did I know they were not telling me the truth"..... 

 

Thank  you very much Sister for  your time and consideration and please let me know if you might want to explore Daniel 11 using the approach I mentioned earlier to you... If not , no problem.... best wishes, Charlie

 

 
 

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

.  I don't know or am not concerned should the majority of believers in the world believe in the gap theory ..... I can tell you and this is completely WITHOUT any attempt to put down ANYONE, it has been my experience (unfortunately), that maybe 90% of the world are followers and not thinkers. 

So you still don't believe Daniel wrote a gap.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after [the seven weeks and] threescore and two weeks [totally 69 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Question: did Daniel tells us the 70th followed the 69? He did not! Note what comes after the 69 but before the 70th: "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary..."  In other words, the 70th week was still future to 70 AD! Daniel has still not written of the 70th. 

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.  Who is the "he?" Back up to find the antecedent: the first person named written previously: It is in this phrase: "the people of the prince that shall come..." The "he" then refers back to "the prince" who we know in History as emperor Titus - or the leader of Rome. 

If we back up and claim "the Messiah" as the one who confirms a covenant with many for one week: how can we explain away the problems? His covenant made with His own blood is forever - not one week!  Next, Jesus did not stop the daily sacrifices. They continued on for maybe another 40 or so years. Sorry, but Messiah does not fit. If we compare Antiochus and what He did, then the Beast of Revelation 13 and what He will do, it seems far more likely that the correct understanding is that it will be a leader from Europe (Rome) who will become the man of sin who will confirm the covenant and will turn into the Beast at the midpoint of the future 70th week.

[Charlie744]

Just now, iamlamad said:

So you still don't believe Daniel wrote a gap.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after [the seven weeks and] threescore and two weeks [totally 69 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Question: did Daniel tells us the 70th followed the 69? He did not! Note what comes after the 69 but before the 70th: "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary..."  In other words, the 70th week was still future to 70 AD! Daniel has still not written of the 70th. 

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.  Who is the "he?" Back up to find the antecedent: the first person named written previously: It is in this phrase: "the people of the prince that shall come..." The "he" then refers back to "the prince" who we know in History as emperor Titus - or the leader of Rome. 

If we back up and claim "the Messiah" as the one who confirms a covenant with many for one week: how can we explain away the problems? His covenant made with His own blood is forever - not one week!  Next, Jesus did not stop the daily sacrifices. They continued on for maybe another 40 or so years. Sorry, but Messiah does not fit. If we compare Antiochus and what He did, then the Beast of Revelation 13 and what He will do, it seems far more likely that the correct understanding is that it will be a leader from Europe (Rome) who will become the man of sin who will confirm the covenant and will turn into the Beast at the midpoint of the future 70th week.

Iamlamad, I was surprised but happy to see that you responded to my earlier response to you... Thank you very much! If you do not mind, I have to leave the internet soon and will not be able to respond until Monday.  I am looking forward to reading this though.  On a different note, and I apologize for asking this of you again, but please let me know if you would like to brainstorm / unlock Daniel 11 using the same approach I used for the first 10 chapters.... I think I may have sent you the possible interpretations for verses 5 and 6 only - they are a significant departure from anything out there ---- don't know how it will turn out but I do know it will NOT include Antiochus whatsoever.  Have a great weekend and best wishes, Charlie

[iamlamad]

Just now, Charlie744 said:

Iamlamad, I was surprised but happy to see that you responded to my earlier response to you... Thank you very much! If you do not mind, I have to leave the internet soon and will not be able to respond until Monday.  I am looking forward to reading this though.  On a different note, and I apologize for asking this of you again, but please let me know if you would like to brainstorm / unlock Daniel 11 using the same approach I used for the first 10 chapters.... I think I may have sent you the possible interpretations for verses 5 and 6 only - they are a significant departure from anything out there ---- don't know how it will turn out but I do know it will NOT include Antiochus whatsoever.  Have a great weekend and best wishes, Charlie

You are welcome! I love to write. However, it seems your theories are so far off from the "pale of orthodoxy" (Thanks to the Bible Answer man - Hank Hanegraaff) meaning the norm of church beliefs on the end times, I may not answer again. I would be challenging every sentence of your post!

[Sister]

On 3/15/2020 at 6:26 AM, Charlie744 said:

Hi Charlie744

Thank you for your reply.  I would like to answer this part first.

Ok, so you believe that the 2300 days is the leading up to Christ on the cross, and on that day he cleansed the sanctuary, so prophecy fulfilled?  Yes, the prophecies in Daniel that speak of His first coming have indeed been fulfilled.  I believe He would fulfill those 6 requirements found in chapter 9:24...

Hi Charlie

Thank you for answering.  Ok this is where we differ.

Just so you know my perspective, I do agree however that Daniel 9:24 (70 weeks) has been fulfilled.  I do not hold that common view that the 70th week is missing and must be fulfilled in the end times.  That whole prophecy came and was fulfilled.

What I do not agree with, is your view that the 70 weeks conclusively links and verifies Dan 8:14 based on the assumption that Christ first came to cleanse the sanctuary, as I earlier demonstrated from the Hebrew scriptures that the ordinances of the first sanctuary (temple made out of stone) was not unclean, and served it's purpose perfectly until the NEW SANCTUARY would be established, made spiritual though Christ.  In other words, how can you cleanse what is not dirty, and what was commanded of God?  Instead, I see the new sanctuary, on earth, now spiritual, which was founded on the truth and doctrine Christ gave, as being taken over and replaced with not just one, but many false doctrines.  This is why we have all the confusion and fights among brethren because the enemy has infiltrated to deceive and cause division.  There should be only one truth, but as time as revealed, the church is not in unity.  This is what Christ will cleanse, throwing out all errors and those who promote it, so that after this, all will be speaking the same word.

I tried to keep the 70 weeks out of it, because that is a whole different subject and takes too much time to battle out, and just concentrate on the Dan 8 scripture regarding when the 2300 days starts and ends.  Of course it all points to Christ, but in this chapter we are shown the lead-up of events which must first take place, which are the signs to take note so we can determine exactly when all is finished in the scheme of things. 

I never once mentioned Antiochus, because I don't believe that the little horn was some prominent Roman figure of the past coming out of the ancient Roman empire, as we know that old Rome is gone, and a new Rome is here not exclusively linked to the Vatican, but a mixed kingdom with neighboring partners of all different beliefs but with the same agenda. 

 

And yes, you were right, we are not supposed to know every single detail of history to find the truth, but I would like to point out that Dan chapter 8 clearly shows us that after the Grecian empire ceased, four kingdoms came up strong.  Those kingdoms still exist today.  Out of one of them in the latter days (now) will the little horn come up.

So to prove many things makes a very large post.  All I can say is thank you for the conversation and the time you took to reply.  I am feeling too rushed now to continue as this is a shared computer in our home and I am about to be kicked off, so therefore my concentration has gone for now.  Until next time...

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Sister

[luigi]

On 2/8/2020 at 3:22 PM, Charlie744 said:

I am sure this particular topic has been discussed in the past, but because I am a newbie I would kindly ask if I could get your current thoughts.... I am currently working on chapter 11 so I have run through the first 10.... 

Would you please comment on the following:

1) Would you please tell me what the 2300 mornings and evenings directly refers or relates to? What will be completed or accomplished at the end of this time period?

2) This may be addressed in your response to #1 above, but if not, what is the basis for your time period - days, years, 1/2 days, etc.?

Please try and keep this as short as possible (dumb it down for me as I am not as "equipped" as those folks that have been responding to my Daniel 11 posts).

If not, no problem and thank all of you in advance, Charlie 

2300 mornings and evenings are the total number of days which include the 1260 days (time, time, and half time) in which the beasts system is in full swing while the Gentiles tread Jerusalem underfoot. Prior to treading Jerusalem underfoot, there will be a period of war 1,040 days in which aerial sorties-the gentiles (described as Hell in Isaiah 28:18-20), subjugate Middle Eastern nations.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 

[Sister]

Daniel 8:13   Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 8:14   And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

2300 days = 6.3 yrs.

The angel told Daniel "days".  Not months or years, but days.

This is a prophecy concerning when the sanctuary will be cleansed, which will be at Christ's 2nd Coming.  Today, God's sanctuary on earth is defiled.  It has been trampled on and the truth has been cast down.  The truth has been trodden under foot, because God's sanctuary on earth has been taken over by the enemy who is preventing the truth from being let out.  The truth is replaced with lies, and to whom?......to those who refuse to come out of Babylon - the system of the world with all it's conditioning to make us believe in many lies.  The world of delusion where everyone just accepts what's being told, and take many things for granted as truth.   If one wants to know what is true, or what is a lie, one can seek for himself and he will find, for God will always provide a way for us to know, so that we can discern the lies.  Regarding the spiritual, we have God's Word in print to guide us, and regarding things about our world - God has sent many to expose the many lies. 

We just have to realise that this world is run by Satan, the Father of lies, and his kingdom, which is this world, has deceived us on so many issues.

What I tried to show in my previous posts, is that the 2300 days has already silently begun and none even realise.  When did it begin?  It began after a big 70 year anniversary.  Jeremiah 25 holds the key.

So in the 2300 days (6.3yrs) we have delusions.  These delusions cause fear (fear of authorities, fear of war, fear of disease, fear of dying etc)  With fear, people always look to the government to implement decisive actions.  Those governments are the ones who have been slowing taking all our freedoms and rights away, and we just let them, because we believe they are there to protect us, forgetting they are serving the Father of Lies and doing his bidding.  In a deluded state driven by fear, the world has now ripened for an even bigger delusion to come our way - The Son of Perdition/the Man of Sin/the little horn revealed to us in Revelation as The False Prophet.  The 2300 days includes the lead-up to his arrival, then his arrival, the persecution of the saints, the two witnesses,  the 7 angels with the 7 plagues, and finally the 2nd Coming of Christ.  That's it in a nutshell and we have entered that phase already.

We don't even have 7 years left of anything?

In the last leg of the 2300 days (6.3yrs), we have 3.5 yrs until the coming.  The FP will be given power to rule for 3.5 yrs then that's it.  3.5 yrs of tribulation for the saints and great tribulation on the whole world. 

So what we see today on the news, and not in truth, is part of the delusion, carefully planned to do away with the current system, only to install a new one.  This current system is being stripped bare.  As many businesses will go down, many will lose jobs, and not be able to afford even the bare necessities.  CHAOS IS COMING.  Love will wax cold.  Brother against brother, every man for himself.  This will last a while.  All these luxury's we have lusted after and taken for granted will be no more available until that Man of Sin comes and offers a solution that nearly all cannot refuse.  We must refuse what he offers because he will not deliver.  The world as we now know it, and the freedoms we once had or thought we had, is already gone.  The take-over has begun.

Don't store up your goods, store up the truth and don't let anyone steal it away.