7 year tribulation

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, Spock said:

is it possible the birth pains began immediately after His ascension back to heaven. In other words, upon his death, the beginning of the end times begins?

Imho Holy Spirit has restrained the wicked as the Gospel of Salvation is still given to the world, if the 2nd Seal is opened peace shall be removed n violence can hardly be supressed  by Law all over the world which means its not possible to sow the seed of Salvation any longer as Gospel will be banned by antichrist n christians persecuted by the 5th Seal, at this moment peace is still relatively found all over the world that we can still sit at churches n Bible is still allowed  as Holy Spirit still remains on earth until the Great Multitude is taken to heaven n replaced by the two Witnesses n the 144000 Hebrew.

This Seals opening  will make people fall n faint in fear to see what will happen next as horror by horror destroy people unceasingly, worldwide famine n super inflation, wars, plagues, life shall b cheap as crimes go on in cities.

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Diaste]

On 8/12/2020 at 12:28 PM, Charlie744 said:

I will just say that it is abundantly clear that 9 is speaking about The Jeremiah covenant - the one God paid such a sacrifice / price for us.

But if you feel it speaks to a covenant to be entered into with the anti-Christ some time 2,000 years later... that is your right. 

Take care. 

Ignoring the fact: "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week."

That is not the Messianic forever covenant between the Lord and His people.

It's for one week or 7 years.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Diaste

[Charlie744]

I don’t think so!  You might want to review the other books on the OT that discuss and offer  prophetic verses about the “new covenant”. The  only covenants in the OT were established/initiated by God—— Satan or some anti-Christ figure has no covenant making ability or opportunity... He is nothing more than a liar and deceiver.

The Bible is not about Satan, although he certainly has done his damage, but God will establish His last covenant with the Jews and of course the gentiles. This new covenant is available to all who believe in Him.

So, the prophets like Jeremiah write about this new covenant, and others, why would anyone attribute the covenant to anyone else? The covenant will be established and fulfilled during the Messiah’s last week (Daniel’s 70th week) on earth. The covenant is for all until He returns- it is not a 7 year covenant and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone other is Han the Messiah!

Daniel chapter 9 is about Daniel’s lengthy prayer to God for forgiveness where he is acting on behalf of all the Jews (this step is demanded by God per Leviticus). Daniel then continues with 9:24 to 9:27 which is ALL about the Messiah— God is not having Daniel write all these prophetic verses about the Messiah which have been mentioned by earlier prophets... this entire 7 year covenant by the / some anti-Christ figure some 2,000 years in the future was a very successful campaign by the RCC to remove the papacy from the label of the little horn. 

If the earlier prophets who spoke of the new covenant also mentioned it would have anything to do or related to a “anti-Christ character, you would not have a problem identifying it so.

The Messiah would complete or fulfill all 6 requirements of 9:24 and also is the subject of 9:25 onward. 

There is also NT verses that speak of the new covenant between God and His people- a better covenant. What covenant are they referring to? It is the one established by the Messiah and it had to be made / established by the Messiah PRIOR to His crucifixion. 

So, I would suggest you go into all the verses in the OT that speak about this new covenant (post King David time/ books), and follow them all the way to Daniel and then to the Messiah and THEN follow it forward into the NT books to see how they all come together and fit like a glasses glove.

However, I am convinced that many will see what they either need to see, or what they want to see, or what they refuse to see. Daniel is about our God and the unbelievable covenant He was willing to make with us... The little horn has done so much damage to His Word and to His church. This terrible campaign by the Jesuit priest Ruberi or Ribera around the 1520’s or so was marketed aggressively throughout the RCC church... and also found acceptance in the Protestant Church —- but that is not too surprising since they have also accepted the changing of the Sabbath to the 1st day of the week—- “he will think to change times and laws”!

Take care and NO, I certainly don’t expect you to change your mind based on the above—- YOU are going to have to do this yourself ... and before that could happen, you have to open your mind to want to consider the covenant is from / between God.

Take care, Charlie 

[Diaste]

48 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t think so!  You might want to review the other books on the OT that discuss and offer  prophetic verses about the “new covenant”. The  only covenants in the OT were established/initiated by God—— Satan or some anti-Christ figure has no covenant making ability or opportunity... He is nothing more than a liar and deceiver.

The Bible is not about Satan, although he certainly has done his damage, but God will establish His last covenant with the Jews and of course the gentiles. This new covenant is available to all who believe in Him.

So, the prophets like Jeremiah write about this new covenant, and others, why would anyone attribute the covenant to anyone else? The covenant will be established and fulfilled during the Messiah’s last week (Daniel’s 70th week) on earth. The covenant is for all until He returns- it is not a 7 year covenant and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone other is Han the Messiah!

Daniel chapter 9 is about Daniel’s lengthy prayer to God for forgiveness where he is acting on behalf of all the Jews (this step is demanded by God per Leviticus). Daniel then continues with 9:24 to 9:27 which is ALL about the Messiah— God is not having Daniel write all these prophetic verses about the Messiah which have been mentioned by earlier prophets... this entire 7 year covenant by the / some anti-Christ figure some 2,000 years in the future was a very successful campaign by the RCC to remove the papacy from the label of the little horn. 

If the earlier prophets who spoke of the new covenant also mentioned it would have anything to do or related to a “anti-Christ character, you would not have a problem identifying it so.

The Messiah would complete or fulfill all 6 requirements of 9:24 and also is the subject of 9:25 onward. 

There is also NT verses that speak of the new covenant between God and His people- a better covenant. What covenant are they referring to? It is the one established by the Messiah and it had to be made / established by the Messiah PRIOR to His crucifixion. 

So, I would suggest you go into all the verses in the OT that speak about this new covenant (post King David time/ books), and follow them all the way to Daniel and then to the Messiah and THEN follow it forward into the NT books to see how they all come together and fit like a glasses glove.

However, I am convinced that many will see what they either need to see, or what they want to see, or what they refuse to see. Daniel is about our God and the unbelievable covenant He was willing to make with us... The little horn has done so much damage to His Word and to His church. This terrible campaign by the Jesuit priest Ruberi or Ribera around the 1520’s or so was marketed aggressively throughout the RCC church... and also found acceptance in the Protestant Church —- but that is not too surprising since they have also accepted the changing of the Sabbath to the 1st day of the week—- “he will think to change times and laws”!

Take care and NO, I certainly don’t expect you to change your mind based on the above—- YOU are going to have to do this yourself ... and before that could happen, you have to open your mind to want to consider the covenant is from / between God.

Take care, Charlie 

Scripture says one week....

[Charlie744]

I got nothing!

[Spock]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Ignoring the fact: "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week."

That is not the Messianic forever covenant between the Lord and His people.

It's for one week or 7 years.

I’m still waiting for someone to explain thus one too, Diaste.  I guess I will have to throw some bait to Retobyter on one of his posts because I think he may explain the 7 year covenant. 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I got nothing!

Dan 9:27, "And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week..."

This literally says 7 years. How is that the same as 'forever'?

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Dan 9:27, "And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week..."

This literally says 7 years. How is that the same as 'forever'?

I respect Charlie for being honest and candid here......”I got nothing”...... 

I’m sure someone must have some explanation for thinking Jesus initiated a 7 year covenant....but it sounds highly ILLOGICAL to me that Jesus would initiate a covenant with a time limitation.
 

in addition, do we know with 100% certainty that Jesus’ ministry lasted exactly 3.5 years, Or 42 months, or 1260 days? (From baptism to crucifixion) 

[Charlie744]

I am certain you have realized just how many different translations there are.... there at least 10-12 Christian ones (KJ, NKJ, NIV, and so on). I also have been going back and forth with Jewish translations (JPS and two others). 

What has frustrated me from you the beginning of my study on Daniel is just how different they are... words are translated quite differently, verses are rearranged sometimes completely changing the message, on and on.

Sometimes it is necessary to drill down to try and find the correct meaning of a verse... how do you know if YOU or I or someone else has the true meaning????? extremely difficult but that is when it is necessary to step back and look at the context of the verses surrounding / following it / coming after it / does compliment or contradict other verses, and so on. 

That is why 9:27 is, for me, a perfect example of having someone identifying “he” as other than the Messiah. The entire chapter deals with Him... All the verses 9:24 on speak about Daniel’s 70 weeks and the 6 requirements that The Messiah would fulfill. 9:25 clearly mentions the Messiah and the specific 3 sections of those 70 weeks- These 3 sections were designed by God for very specific reasons- if you notice or match up those things that were completed during each of the first two sections, you can then determine what must be completed on the last week- the 70th week of Daniel... it say Messiah the Prince not the anti-Christ!

9:26 specifically tells us the Messiah will be “cut off” AFTER the 69 th week..., which means what comes after 69?

But not for Himself— can anyone deny the Messiah would sacrifice Himself for all of mankind? Could anyone possibly tie this unselfish event to the anti-Christ... I don’t think that is in his character- he takes and lies and destroys!!!

9:26 also tells us the city and the Sanctuary will be destroyed by the people of A prince (pagan Rome), but the reason it would be destroyed is for the punishment of the Jews for rejecting their Messiah AND the Temple and the Sanctuary and the Sacrificial system was no  longer necessary- they were all a type of the coming Messiah. 

9:27 tells us He will make a covenant with many (those that would believe He was the Messiah). All of this flows so smoothly! The covenant can also be traced back to the prophets (Jeremiah for one). Jeremiah is not interested or speaking about an anti-Christ. 

I do agree with you that many translations literally read that “he will make a covenant for one week”. On its face it looks exactly like it is only a 1 week Covenant. 

And this is where the RCC had to corrupt these very complimentary (bad choice of words) words and verses!

Just about all scholars and interpreters prior to the 1500’s accepted the papacy was the little horn— all changed after they had to alter the interpretations of chapter 9. 

So I would ask that you might drill down on the translations of 9:27 both before and after the 1500’s. See if you find the identity and time lines changed. Step back about 30,000 feet and ask yourself if these very specific verses could be speaking of anyone other than the Messiah... Why would ~90% of these last few verses point to the Messiah’s purpose for coming to earth but the “he” is abruptly attributed to someone else? Why is the previous verses specifically speaking of the 3 sections of the 70 weeks only to have someone interpret the most important covenant made by God would represent just a 1 week period? 

If you are willing there are really only a few words or verses within these 9 that have been misinterpreted... I have seen too many verses that have been altered wether intentionally, by translating errors from Hebrew to English, etc.

Take care, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

Spock... just wanted to mention something I wrote in my response to RM earlier...

I made a very brief response- “I got nothing” to RM...

Please note this was NOT meant to mean “I don’t have an adequate response”. NO, NO!

It was meant to convey that after spending so much time and “ink” giving him my thoughts , I could not believe he would comeback with nothing more than the same comment “Scripture says one week”.

Meaning I got nothing more to give this guy only to have him comeback with ... no  support or dialogue for his position... I’ve had enough!

Coupled with My factious short response I hit the “thumbs up” button and selected the  “Oy vey” option.... which also reflected my disbelief! Charlie