Daniel 7..... the 10 horns

[R. Hartono]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:41 AM, Charlie744 said:

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast.

 

Here is a link that explains your question.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/littlehorn.htm

[RevReveal]

Just read your past post. If there is some part of Daniel that is spiritual, how does this possibly relate to Daniel’s 70 weeks?

[Charlie744]

R. Hartono, thank you for the link. I have visited this site earlier and am aware of his interpretations. 

There is not much we agree on.... but thanks again, Charlie 

 

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

R. Hartono, thank you for the link. I have visited this site earlier and am aware of his interpretations. 

There is not much we agree on.... but thanks again, Charlie 

 

It has been fulfilled Bro.

But the the little horn of Daniel is the same 4th beast of Daniel (Rome) and will reappear in Revelation 13 (not yet fulfilled). It has killed many saints with their Inquisition and will be given the whole unbelieving world in the great tribulation.

Edited October 1, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Charlie744]

Thank you again for your thoughts!

 I am not sure that I understand what you might be saying..... in Daniel, there are essentially 4 actors (treating the 3 plucked up as a separate actor even though they are part of the 10:

1) the beast, 

2) then the 10 horns arise from out of the beast (separate actor),

3) another little horn arises which is different than the other 10 horns, 

4) then the little horn pluckes up 3 of the 10.

So, how do you see the beast is the same as the little horn? They  all arrive during the 4th kingdom period but are clearly separate actors... 

Charlie

 

[abcdef]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Joe, again, thanks for your help! I went to your post “Daniel 2, the 4th kingdom” and read all the responses over the 5 pages. Quite a different number of interpretations and no shortage of energy!

There are so many interesting comments and, unfortunately, my opinion will only add to the list of different interpretations. 

This is exactly what I mentioned before; I believe it is critical to interpret Daniel BEFORE we open Revelation. Because Daniel is SO complicated (and to be candid, I sincerely believe God has intentionally sealed its true meaning until the end times), we are simply “playing around”, if you will, trying to unpack Daniel BY ACCESSING REVELATION. It certainly allows us to try and put these two books together but that just can not happen (my opinion only). I do believe we are near the end times AND God is beginning to reveal or unseal the last few chapters of Daniel, and only then will be be able to take Daniel forward to interpret Revelation. 

We must open Daniel first to get the “key” to open the book of Revelation. 

When I first started studying Daniel last year I began reading all the interpretations and opinions that are available to us all. I thought this would be a relatively easy exercise since so many scholarly people have dedicated so much time and talent unpacking Daniel during the past 2,000 years... all I had to do was read and study THEIR work product?, however, that proved to be a tremendous mistake! Essentially, if all of these scholarly interpretations were that far apart, then I realized that NO ONE had the correct interpretation (certainly parts were in agreement, but the most important parts of Daniel- those that were NOT supported by our history books, like chapters 9 to 12), and these needed to be interpreted before I could move to Revelation. 

What I found is there are approximately 11 or so very specific issues or items in Daniel that MUST be understood BEFORE we complete Daniel, since these are the issues that cause all the different interpretations and FORCE us to look to Revelation to resolve:

1) 2,300 days,

2) Times, Times, Times and 1/2 Times,

3) who is “he” in 9:27,

4) 4th kingdom, 

5) beast,

6) 10 horns,

7) little horn, 

8) 3 plucked up,

9) ALL of chapter 11,

10) 1,290 days, 

11) 1,335 days.

ALL of these have been interpreted by scholars in different ways, and until these are identified we can not talk Revelation... we are or will be guessing at BOTH books. 

In my findings, the book of Daniel moves from chapter 1 to chapter 12 in a specific manner which is not considered in ANY of those scholarly interpretations; it moves from a purely historical interpretation or reading to a purely spiritual interpretation. Some chapters, certainly beginning with 7 show both approaches- we can easily identify the first 3 kingdoms AND their symbols and related characteristics. But when there is a “transition” to a more needed spiritual approach, we fail to recognize it and we continue to rely on what we know and have comfort in- we try to find these verses in our history books. But as we move forward to the later chapters AND move down to the next kingdom of the beast (4th kingdom), we need to throw away those history books (for the most part), and look to the Scriptures to interpret these difficult 11 issues. This was absolutely impossible for me to unpack UNTIL I changed my focus from attempting to understand them from a secular approach to one which attempts to identify how each of them speak about the Messiah- not some secular ruler like An Antiochus or the like.... 

Perhaps a decent example might be the 2,300 days. Everyone attempts to interpret this in a secular manner, when it speaks of the Messiah.. 

Bottom line - as we move forward to the later chapters of Daniel, don’t you think we should expect God to be revealing the most important events in man’s history; the coming of the Messiah and what will happen after His crucifixion?

The early chapters of Daniel is where God is feeding us milk... easy to digest. The later chapters are His meat AND where we should find Him only- Daniel is a prophetic book about the Messiah and His Plan of Salvation for the next 2,000 years.

So, rather than me offering another interpretation to add to the many (which I may add will come with ALL the supporting bible verses - all packaged nice and neat), I thought I would try and offer an “approach” that would generate a very different interpretation(s) for the 11 issues mentioned above that just might reveal or unseal much of Daniel. 

Look forward to hearing from anyone / everyone, Charlie 

 

 

If somebody told you the truth,

How would you know that it is the truth?

-----------

The beast, the sea beast, the earth beast, the 10 horns, the little horn, are all the same entity, Rome.

They are just different forms of the same Roman entity.

Caesar and Rome, Rome and Caesar, they are different, but are the beast, the same beast

The domination of Rome over the people of Israel changes over time, erodes, diminishes, until the toes end.

The Roman Empire changes over time, but is still ruling until the toes end.

Look at a polished faceted gemstone.

Look at each facet, each is different, giving a different view of the stone.

But they are still the same gemstone, just different views, perhaps giving separate insights into the heart of the stone. 

--------

In Dan.2, the statue is nations that rule over the people of Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem.

The statue shows that the 10 horns/toes do not rise until long after the iron nation begins to rule the people.

The iron nation Rome divides into east and west in the 3rd century AD. 

This is shown when the legs divide.

The placement of the crucifixion would be long before this division of the legs in the 3rd century.

The crucifixion would be shortly after the very beginning of the iron.

The 10 toes/horns do not divide until long after that.

----------

[Charlie744]

Thank you abcdef for your thoughts! I am not sure why you began your response with your first two sentences ... everyone offers their own opinion and are able to add to the conversation.

Anyway, it is quite clear your interpretations are very different than mine ... and that is okay, but I believe the beast, the little horn and the 10 horns each have their own identity, purpose, and time. 

Now, in addition to this specific point you decided to comment on, there are 11 other items mentioned in my last post (but according to your interpretation, there are only 9 total items), you might be willing to discuss... 

Look forward to hearing back, Charlie 

 

[abcdef]

54 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you abcdef for your thoughts! I am not sure why you began your response with your first two sentences ... everyone offers their own opinion and are able to add to the conversation.

For some people there is no truth. 

They cannot identify the truth.

Can you?

The Dan. 2 statue is very simple, it is made hard because of preconceived teachings.

As you say, get Daniel first.

 

54 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Anyway, it is quite clear your interpretations are very different than mine ... and that is okay,

Maybe not so different.

 

54 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

but I believe the beast, the little horn and the 10 horns each have their own identity, purpose, and time. 

They do, but your effort to separate them maybe goes too far. 

Caesar, the Roman Empire, the RCC, and the Bishop of Rome, are all Rome that dominates the people of Israel over the Dan 2 time line.

They are separate entities, yes, but the same nation of Rome.

-------

It's like saying the president, the congress, and the courts are all separate entities, they are, but they are all the government.  

 

54 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Now, in addition to this specific point you decided to comment on, there are 11 other items mentioned in my last post (but according to your interpretation, there are only 9 total items), you might be willing to discuss... 

Look forward to hearing back, Charlie 

Start with the simplest, Dan 2 & 7.

Understand their timelines first.

All timelines MUST agree with Dan 2.

What year does the iron nation begin to dominate the people of Israel? (63 BC approx)

At what time do the legs divide? (3rd century) 

When do the toes divide from the feet? (476 AD when the Roman Empire falls)

When do the toes end? (When Jerusalem is restored)

Yes/No? 

[Charlie744]

Thanks again... and it seems you might just be telling me I can not see the truth because my views are not in agreement with yours... the only way that can in fact be a true statement is IF your interpretations were accepted as “truth” by everyone but me..... so I would ask that you just might want to DISCUSS ANY issue BEFORE you declare the other party can not see the truth (as you see it), and BEFORE any discussion takes place and where you have already declared victory of a battle that does not exist. 

This valuable site, to me, is a sharing of information and opinions by folks so much more knowledgeable than myself regarding the Scriptures. I certainly understand folks having a strong opinion but it should not prevent the exchange of information.  

Now, getting back to your comments concerning the chapter 2 metal image:

1) I agree it is important to understand both the different sections of the image as well as the timing of those kingdoms. I think we might be in agreement the first 3 kingdoms are Babylon, Medes-Persia and Greece.

The 4th kingdom is where the “real” prophetic information for His Plan of Salvation comes forth: 

    a) Even though the 4th kingdom is NOT specifically identified as pagan Rome, it is clear (to me), that this is the beginning of the 4th kingdom. My opinion is it is not labeled as such since it must represent ALL the different powers and empires that will surface during the last 2,000 years. But the 4th kingdom, who is ALSO the beast will begin before the crucifixion. 

   b) The 10 horns WERE previously identified as the 10 toes on the metal image. They also, in my studies, existed prior to the crucifixion AND would continue to the of times (second coming). They have two separate positions or places of importance; they are symbolically shown at the bottom of the feet in Daniel 2, since they were greatly subjected to the powers of pagan Rome. Later on when pagan Rome was breaking apart (feet of iron and clay), these 10 ties would come forth to the top of the beast and take a different and more powerful force. They would be now symbolically shown as 10 horns. 

   c) AFTER was these events, a little horn would emerge who would be different than the other 10 horns- this would be a man desiring power. It is my opinion this little horn is the papacy and comes to full power (no longer subject to the power of pagan or secular Rome), around the end of the 5th century. 

    d) So these are the 3 separate actors that are specifically identified in Daniel and are all separate and have their own very specific place and responsibilities within the 4th kingdom (and once again, the 4th kingdom is for 2,000 years or so). 

So, the 4th kingdom has 3 separate actors that will arrive and have a very special purpose within the 4th kingdom. The most important thing to keep in mind (my opinion), is they each have a significant part in His Plan of Salvation. That is what everyone should remember - no longer are we to consider the wars and battles between the kingdoms of man; they had been and will always continue. The 4th kingdom is ONLY concerned about the “real” war or battle it is the “spiritual” war that would come and last for the next 2,000 years (and of course there will ALWAYS be wars between man), but the actors and events mentioned in the verses covering the 4th kingdom (especially 11). 

The beast, the 10 horns and the little horn AND the most important actor / event, The Messiah and His Crucifixion should be our only focus and consideration! Chapter 11 is an explosion of the 4th kingdom and these very specific actors and events (even though everyone contends they speak to the Ptolemy rulers and AE). 

The most difficult chapter of Daniel is chapter 11... by far! It has taken me 9 months to unpack and I still have some important work to do.... 

The 11 items previously mentioned that have caused much confusion have also been addressed, but chapter 11 alone exceeded the first 10!  

Except for the little horn and the beast there my interpretations of the other 9 items show a significant departure from today’s accepted interpretations - and I am comfortable with them. I would like to make them available at the conclusion of chapters 11 & 12. 

Thank you, Charlie 

[JoeCanada]

53 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks again... and it seems you might just be telling me I can not see the truth because my views are not in agreement with yours... the only way that can in fact be a true statement is IF your interpretations were accepted as “truth” by everyone but me..... so I would ask that you just might want to DISCUSS ANY issue BEFORE you declare the other party can not see the truth (as you see it), and BEFORE any discussion takes place and where you have already declared victory of a battle that does not exist. 

This valuable site, to me, is a sharing of information and opinions by folks so much more knowledgeable than myself regarding the Scriptures. I certainly understand folks having a strong opinion but it should not prevent the exchange of information.  

Now, getting back to your comments concerning the chapter 2 metal image:

1) I agree it is important to understand both the different sections of the image as well as the timing of those kingdoms. I think we might be in agreement the first 3 kingdoms are Babylon, Medes-Persia and Greece.

The 4th kingdom is where the “real” prophetic information for His Plan of Salvation comes forth: 

    a) Even though the 4th kingdom is NOT specifically identified as pagan Rome, it is clear (to me), that this is the beginning of the 4th kingdom. My opinion is it is not labeled as such since it must represent ALL the different powers and empires that will surface during the last 2,000 years. But the 4th kingdom, who is ALSO the beast will begin before the crucifixion. 

   b) The 10 horns WERE previously identified as the 10 toes on the metal image. They also, in my studies, existed prior to the crucifixion AND would continue to the of times (second coming). They have two separate positions or places of importance; they are symbolically shown at the bottom of the feet in Daniel 2, since they were greatly subjected to the powers of pagan Rome. Later on when pagan Rome was breaking apart (feet of iron and clay), these 10 ties would come forth to the top of the beast and take a different and more powerful force. They would be now symbolically shown as 10 horns. 

   c) AFTER was these events, a little horn would emerge who would be different than the other 10 horns- this would be a man desiring power. It is my opinion this little horn is the papacy and comes to full power (no longer subject to the power of pagan or secular Rome), around the end of the 5th century. 

    d) So these are the 3 separate actors that are specifically identified in Daniel and are all separate and have their own very specific place and responsibilities within the 4th kingdom (and once again, the 4th kingdom is for 2,000 years or so). 

So, the 4th kingdom has 3 separate actors that will arrive and have a very special purpose within the 4th kingdom. The most important thing to keep in mind (my opinion), is they each have a significant part in His Plan of Salvation. That is what everyone should remember - no longer are we to consider the wars and battles between the kingdoms of man; they had been and will always continue. The 4th kingdom is ONLY concerned about the “real” war or battle it is the “spiritual” war that would come and last for the next 2,000 years (and of course there will ALWAYS be wars between man), but the actors and events mentioned in the verses covering the 4th kingdom (especially 11). 

The beast, the 10 horns and the little horn AND the most important actor / event, The Messiah and His Crucifixion should be our only focus and consideration! Chapter 11 is an explosion of the 4th kingdom and these very specific actors and events (even though everyone contends they speak to the Ptolemy rulers and AE). 

The most difficult chapter of Daniel is chapter 11... by far! It has taken me 9 months to unpack and I still have some important work to do.... 

The 11 items previously mentioned that have caused much confusion have also been addressed, but chapter 11 alone exceeded the first 10!  

Except for the little horn and the beast there my interpretations of the other 9 items show a significant departure from today’s accepted interpretations - and I am comfortable with them. I would like to make them available at the conclusion of chapters 11 & 12. 

Thank you, Charlie 

Hi Charlie,

Here is something that you must consider:

Daniel 8: 17-19....... The angel Gabriel is told " Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision "

What vision? It is the vision from Daniel 7 and 8. 

"Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end"

" Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end" 

Three times the angel Gabriel said that the vision pertains to the time of the end...the final indignation.

The "appointed time of the end" is the mo'edim. It's one of God's appointed feasts. It's in the "time' times and half a time". ( I can better explain this but it would take some time.....no pun intended )

Just consider what Gabriel told Daniel......