What is the "Apostasy" mentioned at 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

[Justin Adams]

In Job, the word ha-satan means deceiver or accuser or interrogator.

It is NOT Satan (proper noun). Not the adversary that in the NT he became known as. It is possible that at sometime he crossed the line, but the word in the Tanakh is merely ha-satan.

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Justin Adams

[DeighAnn]

On 8/10/2021 at 7:43 AM, Josheb said:

I have already answered that question. Go back and re-read the post. Read it and re-read it and re-read it as many times as it takes to understand what I have posted and the fact I answered that question preemptively. 

 

Because we're not going to get anywhere if my posts are not actually read and adequately understood and I get asked questions I've already answered. 

I am thinking that God must just blind me from parts of them so that I write what I do.  Which works for me.  And if we get nowhere, that will be Gods will, don't you think?  Sometimes I wonder if God is trying to get you to write differently with you having to repeat yourself everyday to everyone.  That must be so frustrating.  It reminds me of that definition of insanity....doing the same thing over and over in the same way and expecting a different result.  Seriously go back and read how many DIFFERNT PEOPLE and concerning DIFFERENT subjects cause you to write the same words over and over.   

[Alive]

48 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I will suggest God brings each of us here and orchestrates the interactions we have for His purpose(s) and we would do well to heed and learn from every such occasion. If nothing else every single interaction I have with every single poster I engage causes me to become more and more and more and more familiar with God's word and improve my knowledge, understanding and use thereof.

Its a Romans 8:28 thing.

Yes, I agree.

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

In Job, the word ha-satan means deceiver or accuser or interrogator.

It is NOT Satan (proper noun). Not the adversary that in the NT he became known as. It is possible that at sometime he crossed the line, but the word in the Tanakh is merely ha-satan.

 

"ha-satan" means "The Adversary".  It's a title (and a description of character) and titles are capitalised, in English, not only names.

Job 1:6 (KJV) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon

- Original: שׂטן
- Transliteration: Satan
- Phonetic: saw-tawn'
- Definition:  
1.  adversary, one who withstands    
-a.  adversary (in general - personal or national)   
2.  superhuman adversary    
-a.  Satan (as noun pr) 

Here it is in the New Testament

Luke 4:8 (KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek Dictionary

G4567 Σατανᾶς Satanas (sat-an-as`) n/p.
1. the Adversary
2. (figuratively) the Accuser
3. Satan, the devil

---Same meaning, same being, same character - in the OT and the NT.

[Diaste]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:51 AM, Josheb said:

What is stated does in fact mean something regarding the guidance of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit NEVER contradicts the written word, and it never leads its followers to do so, either. This is one of the most basic ways we have for recognizing falsehood.  

Not to be a buttinsky but I'm compelled to interject.

The above is so very interesting if generously applied across all the denominations of the people which are called by His name, don't cha think?

[Diaste]

On 8/9/2021 at 3:36 AM, Selah7 said:

Perhaps the great apostasy is sudden.  One minute you are following the true Christ; the next minute you are worshiping the false christ because you have been deceived.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (NASB)

3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

selah.

 

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible."

It's not possible. In this way we will know the elect when the time comes. We know them now and the elect are dismissed. Why? The clarity of vision and thought in the elect is an insult to the world.

Just saying....

 

 

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible."

It's not possible. In this way we will know the elect when the time comes. We know them now and the elect are dismissed. Why? The clarity of vision and thought in the elect is an insult to the world.

Just saying....

 

 

Right; it ain’t possible for the Elect to be deceived. 

[Selah7]

42 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Right; it ain’t possible for the Elect to be deceived. 

@Diaste  Note Gill’s commentary regarding Matthew 24:24:

But by the elect are meant, a select number of particular persons of Adam's posterity, whom God, of his sovereign goodwill and pleasure, without respect to their faith, holiness, and good works, has chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world, both to grace and glory: and to deceive these finally and totally, is impossible, as is here suggested; not impossible, considering their own weakness, and the craftiness of deceivers, who, if left to themselves, and the power of such deception, and the working of Satan with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, might easily be seduced; but considering the purposes and promises of God concerning them, the provisions of his grace for them, the security of them in the hands of Christ, and their preservation by the mighty power of God, their final and total deception is not only difficult, but impossible. They may be, and are deceived before conversion; this is one part of their character whilst unregenerate, "foolish, disobedient, deceived", ( Titus 3:3 ) yea, they may be, and oftentimes are, deceived after conversion; but then this is in part only, and not totally; in some lesser, and not in the greater matters of faith; not so as to let go their hold of Christ their head, and quit the doctrine of salvation by him, or fall into damnable heresies: they may be seduced from the simplicity of the Gospel, but not finally; for they shall be recovered out of the snare of the devil, and not to be left to perish in such deceivings. This clause, as it expresses the power of deceivers, and the efficacy of Satan, so the influence and certainty of electing grace and the sure and firm perseverance of the saints, to the end, notwithstanding the cunning and craft of men and devils; for if these, with all their signs and wonders, could not deceive them, it may be pronounced impossible that they ever should be finally and totally deceived.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Selah7

[luigi]

Satan in the book of Job being the deceiver and accuser, is also the Satan in the book of Revelation. According to Revelation 12:9-10 the accuser Satan deceives all of mankind, which therefore includes deceiving the elect. 

Revelation 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, which is why all the denominations of the people called by His name can and should unanimously anytime and every time some claims to have a special revelation from God that contradicts the plain reading of the scriptures. In all such cases those claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit are not in fact being so led and this is demonstrably evident by 1) the contradiction between God's word and their claims and 2) the revelation claiming individual's lack of understanding of the inconsistency or the denial thereof. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and He does not foment denial. 

The problems are 1) it is hard to see the picture when inside the frame, 2) bad teaching leads folks astray, 3) bad company corrupts good character, 4) the heart is deceitful above all else, and 5) in cases like this (modern-futurism eschatology) accepting correct will mean a substantive correction in other areas of one's understanding of God's word. 

The particular point that was being discussed relevant to your inquiry was the claim satan ruled a kingdom of his own in person and in full charge and Jude 1's plain statement the abode-abandoning angels were held in bondage is not true. The evidence provided was treated with significant degree of inference and any objective, plain reading of any and all of the passages that were referenced easily and readily shows the application of inferences; things not actually stated were being read into the various passages AND being read into them in either neglect or outright denial of what is stated elsewhere about satan. In other words, that entire argument used scripture selectively. For example, the appeal to a beast rising up is not evidence of a kingdom ruled in person and that lack is all the more evident if the beast isn't satan, the beast isn't the dragon, the beast is either something John would see or in our future (the passage was treated as a past historical event, not an eschatologically future event). 

But you've seen this happen often in this forum. You may even have experienced it yourself: you present a reasonable and rational case of well-rendered scripture in opposition or correction of something posted and the other poster tells you they have the Spirit and you need to read the scriptures with the Spirit - implying you've not already done so solely because you don't agree with their view - even though their view is demonstrably inconsistent in some way. It is a form of ad hominem. It can also be a no true scotsman fallacy. Logical fallacy is also another way all denominations of people called by God can and should instantly recognize works of flesh: the Holy Spirit may be extra-rational but He is never irrational and does not steer God's people into a lack of reason. Appeals to "You just don't understand," are more revealing because there is no understanding abuses of logic used to abuse God's word, and any attempt to elevate oneself above another with claims of having Holy-Spirit-revelation another lacks because s/he does not have or is not listening to the Holy Spirit is a direct contradiction of Philippians 2:3 and a host of other scriptures. 

 

Philippians 2:3-4
"Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;  do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others." 

 

But, sadly, discussion board conversations are often competitive and even worse, sometimes self-aggrandizing unawares. That too is another giveaway of the flesh at work because a lack of awareness and the shift away from the topic to insinuate inadequacy in another in elevation of themselves is fleshly, not Christ-like or Spirit-led. There are many experienced, insightful, well-educated, and intelligent posters here and the idea that you or I know better than another is fleshly, and all the more so when expressed. So we necessarily understand ad hominemic and no true scotsman appeals to the Holy Spirit are not just wrong in content but also in method. 

 

The Holy Spirit told me so . 

So too does God's written and incarnate word.

 

And the matter that was being discussed - the claim of satan's own kingdom he fully ruled in person - should be uniformly be denied because 1) he's a created creature who serves the Creator, 2) he's a slave to sin and death, 3) his glory has been stripped away from him, and 4) he's been held in bondage going all the way back to the moment he did not keep his proper abode. The written word does not contradict itself and the Holy Spirit does not contradict the written word and you are absolutely 100% correct: all people called by God regardless of denomination should agree to that principle of noon-contradiction. Satan does not and has never had a kingdom of his own he fully ruled in person. On all occasions when scripture describes the power and authority satan has it should necessarily be understood within the contexts of those four facts of scripture I just listed. 

1. he's a created creature who serves the Creator,
2. he's a slave to sin and death,
3. his glory has been stripped away from him, and
4. he's been held in bondage going all the way back to the moment he did not keep his proper abode. 

God is almighty; He is ALL mighty. He has never been anything else but almighty and sovereignly so. He is, therefore, the Ruler of ALL kingdoms, always and everywhere. The Holy Spirit NEVER contradicts this and all those called by God's name should agree.

Sure. But there's 4 or 5 stand alone discussions in the above.

I'm always curious about the application of the concept as to whether any group adheres to, or despises it, based on some charter or perception, and if they only apply it to others, or if they are even aware of the enormous contradiction. 

The various groups and individuals all make claims to veracity and as you said, even go so far as to attach themselves to the Almighty and the Spirit like self appointed privileged or mouthpieces, and the rest have it all wrong. 

Not disparaging anyone here, just fascinated at the dynamic and thought process that leads a person or group.

I know the answer. The romantic in me has a hard time admitting to it. Too terrifying for too many. Maybe even me.