3rd Temple.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

...

The fact remains there isn't a single scripture stating another temple will be built, there isn't a single prophesy stating any such event will happen and that is always  and only reached by an eisegetic inferential reading of scripture, not an exegetically inferential reading. No one here has proven that appraisal incorrect.

Shalom, Josheb.

Maybe they just need a little help. Actually, there IS a prophecy stating that there will be a third temple used by none other than our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

This is a quote from Psalm 118:22-26ff:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew sentence for Psalm 118:26a is "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH."

As I've said before in this forum, this phrase "baruwkh haba'" is used in the plural, "baruwkhiym haba'iym," at all the seaports and airports in Israel!

It literally means "Welcome, Comers" speaking of visitors to Israel. 

Thus, Yeshua` told the Jews of Jerusalem that they wouldn't see Him again until they could WELCOME Him as God's Representative, and they wouldn't do that until they can do it "out of the house of the LORD"; that is, the "temple," since the Hebrew phrase "beiyt YHWH" was the name for the Temple.

In fact, we also know that when the Messiah Yeshua` comes, HE will build yet a FOURTH Temple!

Consider the Davidic Covenant:

1 Chronicles 17:1-15 (KJV)

1 Now it came to pass, as David sat in his house, that David said to Nathan the prophet,

Lo (Look), I dwell in an house of cedars, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD remaineth under curtains!" 

2Then Nathan said unto David,

"Do all that is in thine heart; for God is with thee."

3 And it came to pass the same night, that the word of God came to Nathan, saying, 

4 "Go and tell David my servant, 'Thus saith the LORD, Thou shalt not build me an house to dwell in: 5 For I have not dwelt in an house since the day that I brought up Israel unto this day; but have gone from tent to tent, and from one tabernacle to another. 6 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, "Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?"'"

7 "Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, 'Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel: 8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth. 9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, 10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. "

15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

 

God was NOT talking about Shlomoh ("Solomon") because God said specifically, "I will raise up thy seed AFTER thee."

2 Samuel 7:12-14 says it this way:

 

2 Samuel 7:12-14 (KJV)

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.

Yet, Shlomoh was installed as king while David was still alive!

1 Kings 1:28-40 (KJV)

28 Then king David answered and said,

"Call me Bathsheba."

And she came into the king's presence, and stood before the king. 29 And the king sware, and said, 

"As the LORD liveth, that hath redeemed my soul out of all distress, 30 Even as I sware unto thee by the LORD God of Israel, saying, 'Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne in my stead'; even so will I certainly do this day."

31 Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said,

"Let my lord king David live for ever."

32 And king David said,

"Call me Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada."

And they came before the king. 33 The king also said unto them,

"Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride upon mine own mule, and bring him down to Gihon: 34 And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and blow ye with the trumpet, and say, 'God save king Solomon!' 35 Then ye shall come up after him, that he may come and sit upon my throne; for he shall be king in my stead: and I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah."

36 And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada answered the king, and said,

"Amen: the LORD God of my lord the king say so too. 37 As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David."

38 So Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and the Cherethites, and the Pelethites, went down, and caused Solomon to ride upon king David's mule, and brought him to Gihon. 39 And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, "God save king Solomon!" 40And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them.

 

Therefore, this Davidic Covenant in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17 is talking about the Messiah Yeshua`, or as some would say, "the Christ Jesus," and God SPECIFICALLY SAID that David's SEED, the Messiah Yeshua`, would "build a house for God's Name!"

 

[Dennis1209]

On 1/25/2021 at 8:28 AM, Diaste said:

Recent news about Israel and the Temple shows the push to begin construction gaining steam even with Arab nations.

I read the construction could be completed in 12 months. 

For some time now all the instruments, furniture, vessels and other trappings for the required rituals have been on hand.

Even now the red heifer is being bred in Israel. 

Rumor is there is an existing secret agreement with the Palestinians for peace. Not sure if that would be a requirement or not, but it is interesting.

Times are changing. 

Yep, they managed to finally breed the spotless and blemish less red heifer. They have all the implements and vestures for Temple worship made. The priestly line has been identified through DNA testing and have been trained for Temple sacrifice. The Temple blueprints were drafted and ready to go. It wouldn't surprise me if much of it was prefabricated also. 

I'm of the opinion that the Temple cannot be built until the seven year peace agreement is confirmed by the Man of Sin.

I highly suspect our friendship and support for Israel is going to drastically change under this administration.

[Charlie744]

Well, I can certainly understand why the Jews would want to rebuild the Temple, construct on the vessels and appropriate priestly garment, prepare a red heifer and find the qualified priests, etc.  Now, I understand it since they have continued to reject Jesus as their Messiah and His Plan of Salvation.

However, I do not understand why any Christian would consider these actions as anything other than cry for help!  The only importance of their thoughts, desires and actions is that we (Christians) need to step up our game to bring them to the Messiah. They are indeed running out of time and if they are not grafted back onto the tree they will be lost forever.

For the Christians that may / seem to feel a 3rd Temple is mentioned in the Scriptures and there is mention and purpose for it being constructed in Revelation, I would simply try and add the following  (BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO READ A VERY SOLID AND PROFESSIONAL RESPONSE TO THIS TOPIC, I RECOMMEND YOU RE-READ THE POSTS ABOVE FROM JOSHEB - HE POSTED IN I BELIEVE ON PAGE 2!

In any event, I really don't see God will have the same view as some of you regarding the continuation of the daily sacrifices - I guess He will have to come to the conclusion that He really did not have to send His Son to die on the cross -And He will just have to consider the Cross a "type and shadow" of the things to come when the 3rd Temple is built.

I suspect He will also have to discount the New Covenant the Messiah made with us for our salvation - they will most likely be "trumped" by the upcoming Temple and the sacrificial system that will be restored. 

Let's not forget His sending to us His Holy Spirit..... although it was a nice gesture, I am sure He will understand it is more important to get back to all the practices and rituals EACH YEAR so we can be properly cleansed -and we will once again promise to obey all the Laws and feast days and visit Jerusalem at least 3 times each year....

I think it is a shame Jesus could not see far enough in the future when a 3rd Temple would be build and a restoration of the 1st century ceremonies.....  If only He had known! Charlie
 

 

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

No other temple was ever intended. God does NOT live in houses built by human hands!!!

Read Ezekiel 40 - 45.

Oh no....a vision!.

Yes, it's a vision. A vision of the future.....all the way to the millennium.

"this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever"....Ezek 43:7

So, again, READ all of Ezek 40-45.

There you will see the temple that will be built!

[JoeCanada]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is true and I think the Jews have held practices.

But in order to fulfill 2 Thess 2 a Temple must stand as if one 'sitteth in the temple' there must a temple in which to sit.

 I don't think this is true that a temple must stand in order to fulfill 2Thes 2.

I used to think this way.....actually up until several days ago.

Perhaps there is another way to understand 2Thes 2.

First though, let's look at Matt 24:1....The disciples asked about the temple bldgs.

" Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple's buildings to Him"....Matt 24:1

The Greek word for these two references to "temple" is heiron, meaning the temple, the temple buildings in particular, or the entire temple complex.

Just a few verses later, Jesus spoke of the AofD...."Therefore, when you see the AofD spoken through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).....He uses a different term..."topos hagios" - holy place - the location of where the AofD is going to stand.

Two different terms and two different ideas.

Matthew could have used the same term if they were the same thing.

So the temple bldg might just be different from the Holy place.

Up until recently, there was a sign on the Temple Mount stating that it was against Torah law to walk around on the Temple mount. But now the religious authorities  have a pretty good idea where the holy place is. So it's the 'place' that is holy to them and not the building.

And now I can understand why in 2 Thes 2 where the antichrist 'takes his seat in the temple of God' can better be understood as ' taking his stand in the holy place" as Jesus declared in Matt 24.

The Jews don't need a temple to begin offering sacrifices. All they need is an altar, which they have. And it's on wheels so it can be rolled right to the spot. All they need to know is the location of the 'holy place'. And that's why the surveyors were on the temple mount just recently, trying to figure out the location.

None of this is God's doing. This is all coming from the Jews.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

They are indeed running out of time and if they are not grafted back onto the tree they will be lost forever.

This might bring you some peace.    He has made Everlasting Covenants. And specifically with the House of Judah -  2 Sam 7, Psalm 89:3,4  29-37
Jer 33:17-26

And He said 

Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

Leviticus 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

 

Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

Deuteronomy 4:27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

Deuteronomy 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Deuteronomy 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Hebrews 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Hebrews 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

Hebrews 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Hebrews 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Hebrews 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

[Charlie744]

27 minutes ago, Josheb said:

False dichotomy. 

The two are not mutually exclusive conditions. This is addressed by Paul when he writes of Jesus as the chief cornerstone, the head of the body and the foundation upon which all else is built. 

Foundation. 
Cornerstone. 
Head. 

When it comes to the temple Christ and his body (physical body or body of believers) are not mutually exclusive conditions. 

And none of it anywhere at any time is about a temple of stone. What the OT implies the NT is quite explicit: God does NOT live in houses built by human hands! 

 

A couple of other things for you (all) to consider. First and foremost is the scriptural truth God neither needs nor wants anything from human hands. Works of flesh do not merit anything and even righteous acts can be filthy rags to The Most High. Prior to the Law the precedent for altars was to use only stones found in creation to build altars, not hewing them in any way. The Law of Moses prevented the hewing of stones and especially the use of tools to shape stones in an altar. When Solomon built his temple the scriptures report 1) no tool was used to hew the stones but 2) they were shaped so well they fit together without mortar. 

Now put the two together: no shaped stones in an altar but shaped stones in the altar in Sol's temple. 

In other words, not only has God never asked for a house and not only does He not live in houses built by human hands and not only was He Himself, His Son and a descendant of David going to be the one to build the temple (I have covered all this is prior posts) but the temples of hewn stones violated God's Law!!!!! 

Sin is lawlessness.

They violated the Law when building the temple. 

 

So when people in the nineteenth century began to teach God intended to have the Jews build another temple of stone they were teaching a teaching that goes against a pile of scripture, creating numerous inconsistencies. 

 

The scriptures do in fact tell us whether Jesus is referring to his body or the Church and it also tells us whether he's referring to a stone temple built by human Jewish hands. We are the temple and God does not dwell in houses built by human hands. 

I will take a little liberty in my exegesis in leave you with this, 

John 1:9-13
"There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.  He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world did not know him.  He came to his own, and those who were his own did not receive him.  But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name,  who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

1 Peter 2:4-5
"And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,  you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

Born of God, not of flesh. A temple built by God, not by flesh. 

Why then would God require His covenant people the Jews violate His Law (again) and build a house in which He does not and will not dwell, a sinful house? How is it The Law Maker, the righteous Law Maker would require a sinful house sinfully be built? 

It's a bad interpretation of relevant prophesy. What was veiled in the OT is revealed in the NT.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely NO way that I could prepare such a response as this..... I don't possess the knowledge, the intellectual capacity nor the communication skills ..... but I am certainly smart enough to take this in and let it stay in me ..... This is HIS Scripture and we should simply drink it in...... Do some of you folks who are quite talented and knowledgeable in the Scriptures and clearly love the Word of God believe that after ALL that HE has done, is concerned with a block of stone or a continuation of sacrificing lambs or the ceremonies and rituals that pointed to HIS first coming?  I apologize if this offends anyone but please read these posts again..... (no not mine), Charlie

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 I don't think this is true that a temple must stand in order to fulfill 2Thes 2.

I used to think this way.....actually up until several days ago.

Perhaps there is another way to understand 2Thes 2.

First though, let's look at Matt 24:1....The disciples asked about the temple bldgs.

" Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple's buildings to Him"....Matt 24:1

The Greek word for these two references to "temple" is heiron, meaning the temple, the temple buildings in particular, or the entire temple complex.

Just a few verses later, Jesus spoke of the AofD...."Therefore, when you see the AofD spoken through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).....He uses a different term..."topos hagios" - holy place - the location of where the AofD is going to stand.

Two different terms and two different ideas.

Matthew could have used the same term if they were the same thing.

So the temple bldg might just be different from the Holy place.

Up until recently, there was a sign on the Temple Mount stating that it was against Torah law to walk around on the Temple mount. But now the religious authorities  have a pretty good idea where the holy place is. So it's the 'place' that is holy to them and not the building.

And now I can understand why in 2 Thes 2 where the antichrist 'takes his seat in the temple of God' can better be understood as ' taking his stand in the holy place" as Jesus declared in Matt 24.

The Jews don't need a temple to begin offering sacrifices. All they need is an altar, which they have. And it's on wheels so it can be rolled right to the spot. All they need to know is the location of the 'holy place'. And that's why the surveyors were on the temple mount just recently, trying to figure out the location.

None of this is God's doing. This is all coming from the Jews.

Yes. There is a lot more to this. I will try to remember to get back to this topic but it might be in a couple days. 

You are right about the holy place.

[Frits]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

even righteous acts can be filthy rags to The Most High.

Bro Josheb,

Your statement that the Most High does not dwell in what is made with hands, comes from the Bible. (Act.7: 48)
I therefore fully agree with your statement on this point.

But I have wondered why you wrote the second part of this sentence?

"...even righteous acts can be filthy rags to The Most High."

But you will probably be able to give a Bible text as an example for your claim, that somewhere a righteous act is classified by 'The Most High' as "filty rags".

Or not?

God bless you.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Josheb said:

Let me know if and when there's a willingness to discuss this rationally because I can address every single point made but the rhetoric betrays sincerity. 

 

The fact remains there isn't a single scripture stating another temple will be built, there isn't a single prophesy stating any such event will happen and that is always  and only reached by an eisegetic inferential reading of scripture, not an exegetically inferential reading. No one here has proven that appraisal incorrect. 

And as I pointed out to all the others who try what you're attempting: you can make me out to be a bad guy all you like but that does not prove the position asserted. 

 

 

I have not disputed the claims plans for a third temple exist. I have asked, "So what?" I have asked about the relevance of those plans to Christians. It is a valid question. It is a question being ignored when it should not be ignored. Your rhetoric does not answer the question or address the very real and valid concerns of that inquiry. 

So there are plans.... So what? Why should I, as a Christian, have any concern for whether or not another temple is built? Can you, will you answer that question? If not then just say so. The rhetoric just posted doesn't answer the question and it just makes you look snotty and insincere. It's your op. You gonna discuss it or not? You gonna discuss it only with like-minded believers? That's a short (and self-satisfying) conversation. You gonna discuss it with those who disagree? Then have something of a cogent response. If not then just say something to the effect of "Not interested in that conversation," and do it without the snide commentary. 

Or don't. 

You choose. 

My question is valid. A valid response is sought and will be appreciated. What is the relevance of another temple to us Christians?

Dude. We have been over this. It's a false premise to attempt to invalidate the actions of man, or preclude an action or thought of man, because God doesn't like it or because of profound truth of the Most High God. It's a reverse post hoc position.

If a Temple is built in Israel is not a cancellation of the reality of the true Temple. It's not like the Jews even believe in Jesus so they aren't going to traffic in what they see as nonsense. And knowing what the true Temple is doesn't stop Christians the world over from building temples and altars. 

It seems your argument is selective and misplaced.

You want rational discussion? Abandon the idea a Temple, a stone Temple, built by the hand of man, represents the abrogation of the profound immutable truth of the Spirit and the reality of the true Temple; as if the works of man supersede the power and strength of the Most High God.

Mankind commits some sort of blasphemy everyday in billions of ways. You really think a group of people who do not believe in salvation by Jesus Christ alone is going to annul the truth of the Spirit?

Not even if they built a stairway to the stars could that happen.