Seven Year Tribulation?

[Justin Adams]

A pogrom against Jews carried out by SA paramilitary forces and civilians throughout Nazi Germany on 9-10 November 1938. This ended 1945. How many years?

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

As I mentioned earlier, for this new concept / interpretation to be promoted by the Jesuits / RCC, they must address more than just one verse in Daniel. They have:

1) changed the focus of "he" in 9:24 to an AC figure rather than "HE" being the Messiah,

"Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him"

I can't see this as the Lord Jesus. 

 

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

2) many also contend the 7 year period, Daniel's last week, is flung far into the future creating this "gap" theory,

3) others contend the 6 fulfillments were NOT completed by Christ at His first coming,

4) the "midst of the week" refers to some AC figure in the far future rather than it clearly (to me) identifies the crucifixion exactly 3.5 years into the 7 years of Daniel's last week,

5) they contend (somehow) this "he" and not "HE" is going to and ABLE to enter into a covenant with the Jews only to betray them in 3.5 years of this "gapped" 7 year period...... We can look throughout the OT and find how many times God has entered in another "Covenant" not only with the Jews but also man... Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Moses.... GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN ENTER INTO A COVENANT WITH HIS PEOPLE.... Satan or a AC figure is NO covenant maker! The most important covenant entered into by God is the NEW Covenant which is poured out by the Messiah... yet we are not willing to assign this precious covenant to HIS OWN PROPHECIES (AGAIN, thanks to the "little horn", but unfortunately, EACH of us will be held accountable for our beliefs - we will not be able to respond that to God that we were only following the church and your (supposedly) pope / leader of the Christian faith......no, only Jesus is our leader and the prophecies speak about HIM.

I don't think that's true. We enter into 'covenants' all the time. I assume you mean something specific. Dan 9:27 isn't specific about the terms of an existing covenant that is confirmed. I doubt the Lord is going to confirm someone else's covenant.

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

So, Daniel 9 has indeed been grossly hi-jacked, if you will, in order to gain the power of HIS authority on earth.... they are and have been willing to speak blasphemies against God Himself (chapter 11), and to "think" to change "times and laws").

But you have isolated the Abomination of Desolation as a barrier, if you will, is still causing you a major concern....... and where you site Matthew 24 as a significant obstacle (and this is certainly understandable since this is a very important verse to contend with when discussing Daniel 9 and just who and when it is speaking to and about).

So let's take that verse in Matthew and perhaps unpack it in a manner that speaks / is interpreted quite differently than today's accepted view (again, along with all the other misinterpretations of Daniel):

 Matthew 24:15-16: “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

a) the very first thing I see that conflicts with today's interpretation is "when you see standing in the holy place".

              Jesus is saying this of course while He is with His Disciples. Meaning this MUST take place BEFORE the 70 AD destruction by Titus. For me, this can only mean one of two time periods: either Jesus is referring to 70 AD where Titus completely destroys everything OR (here is where I place my money) at the time of Christ (and all of this verse must tie together or it will fail). I believe it refers to the time of Christ because AFTER the crucifixion, there IS NO HOLY PLACE -THE TEMPLE MAY STAND PHYSICALLY BUT THERE IS NO LONGER ANYTHING HOLY ABOUT IT AND I DON'T SEE JESUS REFERRING TO IT ANY LONGER AFTER HE BECOMES "THIS TEMPLE THAT WILL BE REBUILT IN 3 DAYS". 

That may be true for us and followers of the Way but it would not be true of everyone in the world. The Jews don't believe Jesus is the Lord God Savior of all mankind. They could build a Temple, call a place inside the Temple the 'holy place' and it would carry no more meaning than a centuries old outhouse. 

 

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

             But this interpretation is incomplete unless all other "pieces" fit together. So, WHO is "standing in the holy place the ABOMINATION THAT  CAUSES DESOLATION"? If the holy place is the Temple at the time of the Messiah, then the Messiah is the one who will stand in the Temple..... He will be judged by the Pharisees and thrown out to be crucified OUTSIDE of the Temple at Calvary. His death IS THE ABOMINATION - THE MOST CRUEL, TERRIBLE, UNFATHOMABLE ACT THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.... THERE CAN BE NO GREATER ABOMINATION THAN TO CRUCIFY OUR GOD AND LORD!!! 

Sorry. I reject this. It literally calls Jesus the abomination. 

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

So Jesus is referring to HIS crucifixion as THE ABOMINATION and the desolation is indeed is the destruction of the Jews, the Temple and the City BECAUSE they know not the timing of their Messiah.

Well it wasn't in the holy place of the Temple.

14 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Diaste, this all goes completely against all the currently accepted interpretations.... but I am so good with these.... Charlie

 

[Diaste]

6 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

A pogrom against Jews carried out by SA paramilitary forces and civilians throughout Nazi Germany on 9-10 November 1938. This ended 1945. How many years?

True, but the prophecies of the end of the age are connected, especially in Matt 24. The above should have resulted in the return of Jesus and the destruction of a great many nations and people after the vast gathering of God's chosen ones. 

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

"Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him"

I can't see this as the Lord Jesus. 

 

I don't think that's true. We enter into 'covenants' all the time. I assume you mean something specific. Dan 9:27 isn't specific about the terms of an existing covenant that is confirmed. I doubt the Lord is going to confirm someone else's covenant.

That may be true for us and followers of the Way but it would not be true of everyone in the world. The Jews don't believe Jesus is the Lord God Savior of all mankind. They could build a Temple, call a place inside the Temple the 'holy place' and it would carry no more meaning than a centuries old outhouse. 

 

Sorry. I reject this. It literally calls Jesus the abomination. 

Well it wasn't in the holy place of the Temple.

 

Okay and thanks for responding, Charlie 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, abcdef said:

The days and months are not literal. They are showing that the 3 1/2 times in the text are the same length, the second 3 1/2 times. 70 AD-1967.

Time, times and half a time is a metaphor for 'season' but can also equate to a specific length of time. When I see 42 months and 1260 days I equate it to known values as a part of everyday life. It's too common and specific to call this allegory.

16 hours ago, abcdef said:

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Think about this,

The 42 months in Rev 13:5 applies to the beast nation Rome, having power over the people of Israel, from 70 AD until 1967. The beast nation changes form, but is still Rome.

42 months stretched out over nearly 1900 years? Maybe the moon really is green cheese.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, abcdef said:

The Mount is under the control of the military of Israel.

They enter and search when every they want to. They can open of close access to the area at any time.

There are NO foreign gentile armies or troops controlling the area.

There are many other holy sites where others worship as well.

It's all about military control of Jerusalem. And Israel controls the entire city including the mount.

And yet much should happened that has not. This solution is inadequate. 

[abcdef]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Time, times and half a time is a metaphor for 'season' but can also equate to a specific length of time. When I see 42 months and 1260 days I equate it to known values as a part of everyday life.

It is meant to be that way. The images and symbolism are meant to relate to everyone, especially Israel.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's too common and specific to call this allegory.

That is a poor way to establish whether a passage or entity is imagery/symbolic or literal.

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I will tell you this, that the numbers will not work out if you take them as literal (42 months and 1260 days in Rev 11 & 12).

You and I probably agree that they represent 3 1/2 times, but then it is a matter of deciding how to fit the pieces together. Futurism is full of problems that cannot be resolved.

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You will never resolve them without "gaps" and the misapplication of scripture in the time line.

The biggest gap is from 70 AD until our present day.

Where are the prophetic scriptures that apply to this time period?

Futurism says, "Oh, it's just not mentioned, it's blank, no scriptures at all, zero, not." 2000 years of the persecution of Israel by the people of Rome, nothing.

Show me the scriptures that apply to this period, 70 AD-2020. If you are a futurist or a preterist, you can't, but they are there. It is just contrary to what you have been taught.

When you fill in the "gap", then you will begin to understand.

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The Revelation is full of images and symbolism, can it be that these numbers are images of a time period that is not specific, that is prophetic? 

When the Revelation was written 85-96 ADish, the future times were not given as specific years, such as, " It will be 1,900 years from the fall of Jerusalem until Jerusalem is restored to the people of Israel."

Instead it says that the good woman of Rev 12 will be in the wilderness for 3 1/2 times, a symbolic 1260 days. 70 AD until 1967, this fills in the gap.

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

42 months stretched out over nearly 1900 years? Maybe the moon really is green cheese.

Maybe things are different than what has been taught, it happens.

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Think about how this idea, that the 7 times are not years, will fit unto other examples of the times.

-

Dan 7:25. The 4th beast is showing the time of domination over Israel, 3 1/2 times, not 3 1/2 years, but the time of the Roman Empire from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored. The second 3 1/2 times.

About the same time period as the iron in the statue of Dan. 2. Except that the iron begins in 63 BC, but they both end at the same time, when the toes end.

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Dan 12:7. The angel says that the time until the scattering of Israel is 3 1/2 times. It is not years, but is the time from Babylon until 70 AD. The first 3 1/2 times.

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Rev 13:5, The time of the Roman beast nation's dominance over Israel. Not a literal 42 months, but an image of the time from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored. 

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Rev 11, The 2 witnesses are the people of Israel, 42 months, from 70 AD they wander in sackcloth until they return to restore Jerusalem.

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Rev 12, The woman is in the wilderness of the gentile nations for 1260 days, the second 3 1/2 times, from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored.

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Please notice 2 things,

First, this theory fills in the gaps.

Second, it puts Rome in its proper roll of the persecutor of Israel, the beast, for the last 2000 years.

 

[abcdef]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

And yet much should happened that has not. This solution is inadequate. 

Lk 21:24, Is a requirement that must be met in order for Jerusalem to be restored. The trampling of Jerusalem by the gentile nations must end. That is, any control over Jerusalem by gentile armies must end.

Can you give me more scriptures that produce additional requirements for Jerusalem to be restored?

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The tribulation is over, the toes of the statue in Dan 2 have ended, the 10 horns have ended, and Jerusalem is restored. 

Now the tribulation is past.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by abcdef

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't see GT on this timeline. I know the entire 7 years is called Tribulation but is that accurate? I don't see it. I see GT as Jesus said it, "...after this shall be GT such as was not nor ever will be..." well into the week.

Hi Diaste,

We know that the A/D is when the A/C sets up his image, (or the false prophet does for him) and the people need to flee to the mountains. (Matt. 24: 15 - 21) Thus in my diagram I have all the times starting from that point. That is the GT, (3.6 years)

[Revelation Man]

On 2/14/2021 at 9:15 AM, Diaste said:

Is it really 7 years?

I don't see it.

Jesus told us ALL TIME on earth is tribulation, thus the Church Age is tribulation, thus those who came of of the GREAT TRIBULATION (Church Age 2000 some odd year period) are thus seen in Rev. 7:9-16. 

The 70th week is tribulation also, Jesus said it, I didn't, this means the 2000 some odd year Church Age is tribulation, the 70th week is tribulation, AND the 3.5 years of God's Wrath where the Anti-Christ uses God's Wrath as a Cloak to hide is actions of conquering Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region, thus that 3.5 years is the GREATEST TROUBLES ever seen, its called Jacob's Troubles because Israel will be attacked, 1/3 will flee unto the wilderness (3-5 million Jews) while 2/3 will refuse to repent and die. (6-10 million).  9 Million Jews live in Israel, 15 million Jews live worldwide, so the numbers can change according to the movement of the Jewish peoples over time. 

There is a 70th Week (7 years) just like there is a church Age period of troubles and a 3.5 years pf the greatest ever troubles.