Abomination

[Charlie744]

10 minutes ago, Episcopius said:

eating crawfish was an abomination in the OT

So was Nathan’s hotdogs... but they too were nailed to the cross... just saying 

Charlie

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Just notes for context  (so as not to confuse any further)

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

These are the years that were coming to a close when Daniel prayed.  

Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.  12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.  13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.  14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11  thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.  13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. 14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

 

Not the TEMPLE

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

70 '7's.  Daniels prayer WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF YEARS (and sorry for Rev, but it's back up).  

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


AGAIN, NOT THE TEMPLE BUT,  THE HOLY CITY as in Nehemiah, not Temple as in Ezra

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

7 WEEKS = 49 YRS  454BC - 405BC 

454 BC 20th year of Asteiages (Artaxerxes) and THE COMMANDMENT TO REBUILD JERUSALEM

405 BC The Temple finished


7 '7's end, and 62 '7s' begins

THREESCORE AND TWO = 434 YEARS 405BC - 29AD

= 483 YEARS OF THE 490   (OF THE 7 '7'S  or 70 x 7 years = 490)


29AD the 69  '7's end with the cutting off of Messiah  483 years from beginning

LEAVING 1 more '7'.  
 

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME  shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

the people shall destroy, the people of the prince of this world, prince of the power of the air

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.  29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.  30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What is the daily sacrifice?  OUR LOVE TO THE ONE TRUE GOD.

What happens when the WHOLE WORLD IS DECEIVED and the LOVE THAT SHOULD BE GOING TO GOD IS GOING TO AN IMPOSTER, claiming to be God instead?????



Revelation is going to be a snap.  

Sometimes it helps to see more terms just to get a better feel of the verse.  
 

AND HE SHALL CONFIRM
he will prevail, Be strong, mighty subject, enemies, make strong, strengthen, will confirm with our tongue, make strong our tongue,behave proudly, act insolently
exceed, be great

A COVENANT
a pact, compact, covenant, treaty, alliance, league, constitution,  ordinance, agreement, pledge, 
 

WITH MANY

FOR WEEK

ONE

BUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK 

HE SHALL BRING AN END TO

SACRIFICE
Sacrifice of the God of Israel
sacrifices of righteousness (offered in righteousness by the righteous, sacrifices to God)

AND OFFERING
Gift, tribute, offering, present, offering made to God, grain offering

AND ON

THE WING
The wing, extremity, edge, corners, ends, fold, 

OF ABOMINATIONS
Detested thing, filth, abomination, detestable things

SHALL BE ONE WHO MAKES DESOLATE
To be desolated or appalled, causes horror, horrified, laid desolate, laid waste, lies deserted made desolate, ravaged, ruin, ruins

a primitive root: to stun, grow numb Devastate or stupefy, bring into unto lay lie make desolate

AND EVEN UNTIL
As far as, even to, up to, until, while

THE CONSUMMATION
Completion, complete destruction, consumption annihilation

AND WHICH IS DETERMINED
To cut, sharpen, decide, decreed, determined, maimed, uttered

IS POURED OUT
Is poured out, emptied, melted, poured, rained,  pour forth

ON

THE DESOLATE
To be desolated or appalled, causes horror, horrified, laid desolate, laid waste, lies deserted made desolate, ravaged, ruin, ruins

a primitive root: to stun, grow numb Devastate or stupefy, bring into unto lay lie make desolate

The prince that shall come is the little horn.  And he is coming before Christ returns.  


SOME will say this is all past but they have to DISCARD scripture to do so.  

Did Antiochus confirm the covenant with many for a week and in the middle of that week cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease etc.???  No.  

DeighAnn, you have posted an large amount of information both within and outside of Daniel.... and is is my opinion, after reading all of today's accepted interpretations of Daniel, they also have been instrumental in interpreting many verses in Daniel.

Now to be candid, I will state that most of the interpretations of Daniel that will be found in thousands of books, articles, videos, TV evangelist, scholarly work - all the big guys quoted extensively online and everywhere, probably number NO LESS THAN 1.3 Billion Christians around the globe...(seriously). Certainly within that large very large group you will find differences but in general, they all seem to have a similar interpretation.  

I began studying Daniel some in July, 2019 and read all of these folks works... and believed the "heavy lifting" was already done by so many folks who possessed superior intelligence and abilities including an tremendous love and knowledge of the Scriptures.... All I had to do was try and learn what they discovered!

That was fine until I moved on through Daniel and came to the "non-historical" chapters. No matter how hard I tried to learn and see their interpretations, it would not take... too many disconnects, and uninterpreted verses, the message began to completely go left or right and take a path away from everything that I thought made sense, a strong neglect to find the Messiah in the later chapters but staying with their approach to match these verses to our history books - no matter what the previous chapters (2,7 & 8) have defined. When they simply could not interpret them at all, they would reach forward to Revelation and see what Revelation could offer to interpret Daniel.... 

I can not tell you how many times I had to walk away in complete frustration - I am unable to understand or see their interpretations..... until I started all over again and used all their work and effort to understand each chapter... when I moved onto to the later chapters (especially 9) where things really had gone left (my opinion) and began to ask what does or should these verses speak about... the more my answer to that question was "look to find the Messiah in these verses", the easier it was to interpret..... 

So, the only advice I would give you and once again it is completely contrary to everyone else's approach is to study Daniel on its own and look for the Messiah in the verses that are in the later chapters of Daniel... you will find Him... that is why He had Daniel write this book.... I guarantee you that AE or the Ptolemies or Caesars or folks during the intertestamental period do not belong and should not be found in Daniel....

Charlie 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Charlie744
wrong year

[Charlie744]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I am inclined to agree. I am inclined to agree because 1) I read scripture as written in its ordinary meaning of words unless there is reason in the immediately surrounding words that indicate a reason to do otherwise and I read no such words in any of the passages containing the phrase "abomination of desolation. 

How many of those  people here in this op have you read explaining how and why we should read those days as anything other than days?

Very commendable to seek clarification. How many here do you see clarifying their views? I have endeavored to do exactly that in answering the question asked: 

 

What is the abomination of desolation?

 

 

is it a future event, prior to Jesus’ return?

A debate over what the word "days" means could drag us far afield of those questions but it may be germane because if the word "days" actually means days in the ordinary meaning of that word then knowing when the sacrifices ended excludes certain answers to those questions as both scripturally and logically impossible. And that will leave us with only that which is scripturally (exegetically and logically possible. Isn't that the way scripture is supposed to be parsed? 

 

.

This is so true... these days of 2300, 1290 and 1335 days, time, times and 1/2 time, as well as the "7 year" period along with the "covenant", the "he" in 9:27, the "abomination", the meaning of the "desolation", ALL of chapter 11 - all of these for me represent the most complicated terms in Daniel ... there really is no shortage of interpretations for these.... 

Are they years or days or do they speak to what period in time... Daniel's time, the time of the Messiah or the end times.... you can see the permutations and the combinations we could come up with...... 

Each one of the above must work hand in glove with the other verses in Daniel and speak the same message to us.... and they do. 

Today, we are fortunate to discuss two of them - the abomination and the desolation issues... I just saw a response from Josheb so I will open it now, Charlie

 

 

[Charlie744]

19 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Thanks, but the Daniel 12:11 text states, "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days." How does your view meet that standard? The sacrifices stopped after the abomination of the crucifixion, not before. 

Okay, I am not sure why you responded to Daniel 12…. We are discussing who is the “abomination” mentioned in 9:27….

Can you offer your thoughts-

1)        I have provided my reasoning / basis for the “abomination” (act / person / event)….  I would welcome your thoughts on this,

2)      I believe you do not agree with my interpretation so after 1) above, would you mind telling me what or who this term “abomination” refers to?

 

 

19 minutes ago, Josheb said:

What?????!?!?!?? 

Why do any of that? Why make any of it future to us?

There is absolutely no mention whatsoever of the AC in any of the AoD passages. Why do paste them together? 

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here. Are you talking about the "desolation" issue or...? 

19 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 

That is three very specific questions, Charlie. I'm trying to keep the conversation op-relevant and focused. 

 

1) How do you reconcile the crucifixions as the abomination given the stipulations of Daniel 12:11?

I would like you to address the first mention of the "abomination" that we have been considering - in 9:27 not chapter 12....

19 minutes ago, Josheb said:

2) Upon what basis do you make the AoD so far-future from the NT that it is 21 centuries (or more) into the future? 

I have no idea what you are talking about... the AofD is not in the future... I think we need to stay with the two issues : who or what is the abomination in 9:27 and what is this "desolation" that is caused by this "abomination". Obviously our answers will include the period of time they occur...

 

19 minutes ago, Josheb said:

3) Given the fact there is no mention of the AC in any of the AoD passages why do you past in the AC? 

I don't know what this is all about... I think we don't have to concern ourselves with the AC... just the two issues in 9:27.  Are you bringing in my interpretations to another member or post? This is just about our two issues  .. to start. Charlie

[Brother Duke]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

I am inclined to agree. I am inclined to agree because 1) I read scripture as written in its ordinary meaning of words unless there is reason in the immediately surrounding words that indicate a reason to do otherwise and I read no such words in any of the passages containing the phrase "abomination of desolation. 

How many of those  people here in this op have you read explaining how and why we should read those days as anything other than days?

Very commendable to seek clarification. How many here do you see clarifying their views? I have endeavored to do exactly that in answering the question asked: 

 

What is the abomination of desolation?

 

 

is it a future event, prior to Jesus’ return?

A debate over what the word "days" means could drag us far afield of those questions but it may be germane because if the word "days" actually means days in the ordinary meaning of that word then knowing when the sacrifices ended excludes certain answers to those questions as both scripturally and logically impossible. And that will leave us with only that which is scripturally (exegetically and logically possible. Isn't that the way scripture is supposed to be parsed? 

 

.

I can work with days but if that is so and the daily sacrifices were suspended in 70 AD then what happened in 72.5 AD to 73 AD(1290 days after daily) that we would call the abomination?

[popsthebuilder]

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

1Cor 3:16 16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 

 

Thank you. Though that isn't what I asked for. 

[popsthebuilder]

9 hours ago, kingdombrat said:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important things.

 

What does this have to do with the Second Coming?

Wrong verse evidently. My apologies. 

 

Matthew 24:34 about this generation not passing until...

[DeighAnn]

What is an abomination to God?  What does God hate?  

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

God tells us THERE IS A FAKE ONE COMING, DO NOT be deceived, he's even going to stand IN MY PLACE CLAIMING TO BE ME.  He is going to deceive THE whole world.

I am going with there is nothing and no one who is more of an abomination to God than the one He introduced us to from the beginning.  He was there in the beginning, he will be there in the end.  

Idolatry/Unfaithful.  Lawlessness  

 


 

[Starise]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What is an abomination to God?  What does God hate?  

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

God tells us THERE IS A FAKE ONE COMING, DO NOT be deceived, he's even going to stand IN MY PLACE CLAIMING TO BE ME.  He is going to deceive THE whole world.

I am going with there is nothing and no one who is more of an abomination to God than the one He introduced us to from the beginning.  He was there in the beginning, he will be there in the end.  

Idolatry/Unfaithful.  Lawlessness  

 


 

I only have maybe 5 minutes here and there to post so I can't delve into this nearly as deeply as I would like.

Suffice to to say, many of the events have happened. Others have not happened yet.

It's not all a done deal. If it were we would all be with the Lord.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Starise said:

I only have maybe 5 minutes here and there to post so I can't delve into this nearly as deeply as I would like.

Suffice to to say, many of the events have happened. Others have not happened yet.

It's not all a done deal. If it were we would all be with the Lord.

100% AGREE.