Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[OldCoot]

35 minutes ago, Alive said:

Since joining the forum and reading a lot of discussions on this, I find it interesting that so many folks have focused attention on the issue and still there is no consensus.

This suggests to me, that the Lord doesn't desire one.

Of course, I could be all wet. One thing is certain--we will know as things unfold and we hear a loud shout and a trumpet.

Maranatha!

Should that really be a surprise?  Those within the church have debated eschatology for almost 2000 years and not come to a unified consensus.

And you could be right, that the Lord doesn't desire a unified consensus.  We will get to ask Him face to face one day.

Yep.  Maranatha!  Come Quickly!

Cliff

[Alive]

7 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Should that really be a surprise?  Those within the church have debated eschatology for almost 2000 years and not come to a unified consensus.

And you could be right, that the Lord doesn't desire a unified consensus.  We will get to ask Him face to face one day.

Yep.  Maranatha!  Come Quickly!

Cliff

Nope--it is not a surprise.

I have a theory about that sort of thing.

 

[ARGOSY]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

I got it the first time you wrote it.  I just am not convinced the rapture is as tight as you suggest. 

Pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath are all technically "pre-wrath".  Just how far "pre" is the debate.  

I noticed you didn't deal with my point that the descriptions of a rapture in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, involve the coming of Christ. 

 

Its interesting that the Bible calls the rapture of the saints, the coming of Christ, yet pre-tribbers don't like to call that the second coming. 

[OldCoot]

17 minutes ago, Alive said:

Nope--it is not a surprise.

I have a theory about that sort of thing.

 

There is a positive though.  It can lead folks to crack open their Bibles and study.  Most folks, either in the church or in the world, are apprehensive about future events.  I think that is part of our DNA.

[ARGOSY]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

I got it the first time you wrote it.  I just am not convinced the rapture is as tight as you suggest. 

Pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath are all technically "pre-wrath".  Just how far "pre" is the debate.  

1 Cor 15

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be changed (living believers will be changed) 

 

Where is any earlier rapture if 1 Cor 15 says us living believers will be raptured at the resurrection, at the coming of Christ? The resurrection occurs at the beginning of the millennium, not 7 years earlier at some earlier rapture. 

[Behold]

23 hours ago, Alive said:

Behold--I am struggling with seeing just what you are trying to accomplish here.

I see some logical fallacies and it is generally convoluted.

For example--as I attempt to grok what you wrote.

Are you saying that to 'not take the mark' is a work and that the HS isn't involved at all? Why can't the Holy Spirit be present?

To be clear---I understand what you are laying down regarding 'faith' during the MA, but that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is not involved.

You seem to be saying that the first means the second follows naturally. You exclude the one because of the other. This does not follow--in my way of thinking.

The Holy Spirit was active before the cross and after the cross. Everything you are saying seems to be keyed to your conviction that the Holy Spirit leaves the scene with the ecclesia.

 

Here is what im saying..

The bible is a living book that dictates the progressive revelation of Truth, = regarding God's dealing with Man....since the very first one was created.

From Gen - Rev, this revelation, (the revealed method of God dealing with US), changes.   In other words, and to simplify, the RULES DOWN HERE change as the book continues to write its prophecy.

For example, you had no written  law given, before Moses.   So that is the progression from Gen - Moses.  And that is why you have this verse... "where there is NO LAW, there IS NO TRANSGRESSION">

From Moses to the Cross, you have a new set of Rules that are revealed, and so, Transgressions are revealed as SIN.

So, do you see that change?

Thats just ONE.

Then, the Cross was lifted and the Law was resolved by Grace.

This FREELY OFFERED resolution regarding the judgement of the law ,  during the "time of the gentiles", where God is redeeming based on Faith alone, is going to END.

It is going to end, as soon as the Church is Raptured and the Tribulation begins.  And then the rules  that apply during the Great Trib, which are NOT in effect now, will also end, as the MA begins.

Here is how you can know that the Church will be raptured before the GTrib begins.   Its simple Logic.  God is not going to have His Body dealing with a new version of "how to be accepted by Him", that is going to be in place during the GT, when He has already accepted us in a different way, and this way is "justification by faith".  So, he will take us out of here, and then starts "tribulation salvation" for what is LEFT down here.

So, during all this progressive revelation the HS is the same HS, but the operation of the HS is not the same.

The HS will not be drawing men to the Cross, in the MA for example.

And the "gift of righteousness", based on "faith", will not be offered as the sole means of redemption once the Rapture has occurred and the Son of Perdition is running the show during the Trib.

So, the HS is always the same, yes.... but the progressive revelation of the Bible, and the rules that are in place regarding many things related to how God is dealing with Mankind, change, and change and change.

God does not change, but His methods for dealing with man,  absolutely change from one end of the bible to the other.

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Behold

[Alive]

This is true as a matter of course. Its basic. There are also examples throughout scripture that God has had and will have different 'companies' of believers that accomplish His will and speak as types to us. I believe this to be true.

Your concrete conclusions regarding this dynamic may be suspect, however.

[Behold]

36 minutes ago, Alive said:

Your concrete conclusions regarding this dynamic may be suspect, however.

Only if you dont know.

And its better that you dont insinuate against me,  unless you can prove what you are saying.

What you have proven, is that you, in general, have a lot of unanswered mental questions about what is going to happen during the Trib.

So, i gave you answers that you don't accept.

Im fine with that, but dont insinuate that im wrong, when you are uncertain of any answer, and not just mine.

Be a skeptic, without being insulting, if you want me to respond to you.

Argue if you like, but do not imply what you can't prove.

Thx.

 

[Alive]

Just now, Behold said:

Only if you dont know.

And its better that you dont insinuate against me,  unless you can prove what you are saying.

What you have proven, is that you, in general, have a lot of unanswered mental questions about what is going to happen during the Trib.

So, i gave you answers that you don't accept.

Im fine with that, but dont insinuate that im wrong, when you are uncertain of any answer, and not just mine.

Be a skeptic, without being insulting, if you want me to respond to you.

Argue if you like, but do not imply what you can't prove.

Thx.

 

Wow! How in the world did you conclude from what I wrote that I was insulting?

You are correct in that I am unsure about many things regarding the end times, as I have admitted several times.

It is not where the Lord has had me look, until recently--it would seem.

I only meant that you stated your conclusions as absolute and it is possible that some are not.

[Mal'ak]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

Clearly stated, but will be ignored because humans love to let their traditions of man make void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), here we are told of "the coming of our lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him".  This was not separated, or have any first time, or second time, or thirtieth time.  We are told when Jesus returns we will be gathered to him, but then told clearly "let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come....that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God".  If you can not figure it out yet by the descriptive language, we are told that satan will be on Earth before Jesus comes and Christians are gathered to him....the "let no man deceive you by any means", is God winking at the rapture 2,000 years ago saying people are going to be telling you trash lies about you being gone before this all happens, but don't listen.

Witnesses:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Second Witness from Jesus Christ himself, which will also be ignored in favor of traditions of man, Matthew 24:15 lines up perfect with 2 Thessalonians 2:3, satan will be here in the newly built temple.  Now the hints of no pre-trib rapture from 2 Thessalonians 2:1+2 when it says "by our gathering together until him....for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away", we see in Matthew 24:22 "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."  The tribulation was shortened for our sake, so it would not be too hard to bare, because if it lasted as long as originally planned then none of us would be gathered by Jesus when he returned because we would all have fallen to satan's lies by then. As we are told in Matthew 24:31 when Jesus returns "immediately after the tribulation", Jesus "shall send his angels...they shall gather together his elect".

 

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

Here is where Behold is misunderstanding again, the Tribulation is for the Christians...or so called. The devil does not need lying wonders, God does not need to send strong delusion, that non-believers should believe a lie.  Non-believers and the wicked already worship satan, if they know it or not, they are part of his kingdom on Earth here as you are either a Christian or you are not.  So no reason for satan to come pretending to be Jesus and lie about being Jesus, so he could deceive the non-believers, he is targeting the Christians.  Why? God tells us, "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved".  This rapture theory is one example of Christian  "pleasure in unrighteousness", because it is not about trusting God or being willing to stay strong for God to prove themselves, the rapture is about scared frauds not wanting to be here during the tribulation since it will be hard and trying.  All Christian beliefs now, even by Behold's words, "justification by faith"...what?  Lazy.  "James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"  Belief is nothing without proving it, anyone can say they are a good person, but based on what?  What did you do to classify you as a good person? Why should you go to Heaven when so many go to Hell? Is the only difference between those that go to Hell and those that go to Heaven the gift of faith?  If that was true, then that makes God a sinner, as he breaks his law and declared himself a respecter of persons. "Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Not by faith, everyone that "worketh righteousness, is accepted with him".

 

Witness:

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

As we see "in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them", which goes with "2 Thessalonians 2:8 then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming".  What people don't understand, is that the "reapers" are the demons and satan, God will send to gather the tares with lies and God will allow them to believe the lies because the tares did not love the truth and rather live in safe ignorance of being raptured away....that they don't need to follow God's law as they live by Grace...that they don't need to repent, because God makes them so they no longer sin.....that they don't need to do works, just watch tv all day, because they are justified by faith....all easy road traditions of man, believed by people wanting an easy life with no consequences for their actions, but there will be consequences.