The Need for a Future Millennium

[Retrobyter]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Off-topic, but justification is by faith, not grace. Salvation is by grace through faith. Justification is by faith. Salvation is not justification. Justification is not salvation.  Justification is only part of the much larger construct of salvation that includes regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, indwelling, etc. 

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he (Yeshua`) spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

"'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

"'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep; justified by faith, not grace. 

There isn't a single verse in the entire Bible that states, "...justified BY grace..." 

There is scripture that plainly states we are saved by grace.
There is scripture that plainly states we saved through faith.
There is scripture that plainly states we are justified by faith. 

There is no scripture actually stating we are justified by grace.

 

We are saved by grace through faith having been justified by faith. That is what scripture actually teaches and the details of the "by" and "through" are important. 

But that's getting us off-topic. I'll gladly discuss this with you further if you like in the Soteriology board. The point being made relevant to this op is that modern futurism leads to compromises in core Christian doctrines, in this case the core doctrine of soteriology by which a person is saved by grace and not by works. Whether modern futurism intends to do so or not what its teaching inescapably mean is there is a salvation by works-first-then-plus-grace for one group of people and a salvation by grace apart for another group. 

 

I think you should all look at that because it's a very real and very huge problem, theologically; the eschatology compromises its own theology. It compromises core Christian doctrine; it is an entirely different religion!  

 

And when you're done conetmplating that fact I'd like to discuss how modernism compromises our Christology by asserting a completely different Jesus, even as it claims to do otherwise. 

Hi, Josheb.

What does it mean to be "Justified?"

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Don't tell me; tell the poster that made the comment. You stepped into a tangent between two others and you're preaching at the wrong guy.

My bad .... Perhaps...?

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

The fact remains if there is one king over all then there cannot be two kings. This is basic comprehension 101. If Jesus is coming to earth to rule the entire world from Jerusalem then David is not the ruler of all as was originally asserted. Can't be both ruling over ALL. 

You can quote all the scripture you like but until the matter of one-is-two-and-two-is-one is resolved it all looks like what it is: nonsense!

They've been doing it for thousands of years now! Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, Xerxes, Artaxerxes, Alexander the Great, ...

All of these men were "Kings of kings!" A couple of them were actually called that in the Bible! They ruled their empires with a hierarchy of kings!

Do you think that Yeshua` would be foolishly doing it any different?!

[DeighAnn]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

When the Millennium is over, that is, haSatan will be freed from his prison, once again to deceive and make havoc in the world. Yeshua` will conquer the deceived nations of the world, and they will be resurrected to stand trial before Judge Yeshua` at the Great White Throne Judgment. It is after this period that Yeshua` will turn the Empire over to His Father, that God may be all in all.

Hi Retro,

EXCELLENT explanation.  

Just looking for some clarity here on who is who when. 

 

1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.




 

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Do you believe at this point that The Lord is still ruling and reigning on the earth or do you believe that Satan had already been put down and the release of Satan is when He is excepted and God becomes all and all?
 

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God and the books were opened and another book was opened, which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

My understanding right at this moment is Jesus judges at the beginning and God, as all and all has the final judgment and that consists of ALL OF HIM.  

Thank you.  Again really nice.  d

[DeighAnn]

On 10/31/2021 at 7:07 AM, Alive said:

DeighAnn…wow, you pasted a ton of scripture and I read thru much of it, but can you express briefly, what it is that you are teaching?

Was all of that to say that you believe David will sit on a literal throne once again? Was that the point of all of that? I have read these scriptures most of my life and they say much. Can you narrow it down.

I would like to see a conversation and then decide, myself…difficult when a wall of scripture is pasted. Scriptures we all have read likely many times over years.

Hi Alive, I do not know to what wall you are referring.  I am aware that the Lord "like a thief in the night" could show up at any moment and I don't want to be saying "I was going to put forth all you gave me but the people didn't like it that way".  Maybe if it was given in short little snippets I could but that is just not how it is happening.  When I get to heaven THAT is when I will care what was thought.  I figure there are so many telling me it is wrong that it must be right.  The whole world will worship after....and God said there would always be a remnant...I would much rather please Him than anyone.  WOW, I was going to really try to keep this short.  

YES, I believe God is the God of the living and not the dead.  I do not believe that Christ could have risen,  if the dead don't rise*.  So yes, I believe the LITERAL and King from the past will be present in the very near future.  I believe he will reign and rule with Christ.  I believe when we die we are absent from the body (flesh) and we are back with the Lord (our spirit/soul in our celestial/heavenly/spiritual body)  Else how does one tell each other apart?  How would the rich man be on one side and Lazarus on the other?  Why ask for water if have no mouth.  How see if have no eyes.  How does judgment come upon someone who is air?  Where did all those go when the graves opened up?  Who is keeping Elijah and Enoch company?  Who is the 'fellowservant, a brethren of the prophets) the ANGEL John fell down to worship and where did he come from?  That conversation took place 2000 years ago.  Jesus told his apostles they couldn't follow him then, but He was going to prepare a place and He would come meet them so they could be together.  I'LL bet HE DID JUST THAT.  Probably came like a thief in the night.  Totally unexpected (DEATH comes like that for a lot of souls).  I am sure they were watching and making sure that when that time to go rest came they were really happy to see Him.  And what did Paul tell us?  

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Don't be ignorant
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that

Jesus died and rose again,

even so them also which sleep

in Jesus will God bring with him.


 

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

They most certainly are going to have to finish their work and have their FLESH BODY die FIRST.

And like a thief in the night He comes.  Hopefully they are not found having let the first commandment fall by the wayside or not followed the instructions given and so be of no use to Him on his day.  Got to know Gods words and their truths to be a priest and to reign with Him.  

No wonder not knowing Gods Truthes is so bad.  What use are we to Him if we aren't putting forth WHAT IS WRITTEN?  Good Intentions don't bring anyone to the truth.  As a matter of fact it KEEPS them from it.  Not doing any good while here and not going to be of any use on the Lords Day either.   Yeah, man pleasers.  So worried about how they look for the 5 or 10 or 20 years here and completely don't take into consideration what the 1000 years are going to be like looking at those who weren't.  

Ah, if only He were to find a fire kindled.... I digress

  

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Hope I answered the question.  Kinda hard to have a conversation with myself.  Feel free to ask what scripture I put with what and why.  All of it is written.   Thank you for asking so nice, I appreciate it.  d


*Please note I did not say 'will be rising at a later time or day'.  I mean that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, meaning RESURRECTION IS IMMEDIATE upon death in this flesh body.  Pass through death.  No more bondage to death.  Rejoice in a death?  Mourn a birth?   LEAVING GOD, RETURNING TO GOD. Go to be where He prepared a place for me.  God of the living and not the dead.  The graves opened.  First fruits of them that slept, not of all going to sleep.  

The capitols are not yelling at you.  

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

What's the topic of this op? 

 

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep; justified by faith, not grace. 

There isn't a single verse in the entire Bible that states, "...justified BY grace..." 

There is scripture that plainly states we are saved by grace.
There is scripture that plainly states we saved through faith.
There is scripture that plainly states we are justified by faith. 

There is no scripture actually stating we are justified by grace.

 

We are saved by grace through faith having been justified by faith. That is what scripture actually teaches and the details of the "by" and "through" are important. 

But that's getting us off-topic. I'll gladly discuss this with you further if you like in the Soteriology board. The point being made relevant to this op is that modern futurism leads to compromises in core Christian doctrines, in this case the core doctrine of soteriology by which a person is saved by grace and not by works. Whether modern futurism intends to do so or not what its teaching inescapably mean is there is a salvation by works-first-then-plus-grace for one group of people and a salvation by grace apart for another group. 

 

I think you should all look at that because it's a very real and very huge problem, theologically; the eschatology compromises its own theology. It compromises core Christian doctrine; it is an entirely different religion!  

 

And when you're done conetmplating that fact I'd like to discuss how modernism compromises our Christology by asserting a completely different Jesus, even as it claims to do otherwise. 

 

Hi, Josheb.

I know this is somewhat off-topic, but it is an important point that warrants a topic within a topic.

Prophecy discussions take a back seat to the topic of making one reconciled with God.

You're right about the wording within Scripture, but the definitions of these words are important, too, both in English and in Greek.

The Greek word translated as "grace" is "charis," sometimes written in the instrumental case giving it the "by" or "with" preposition as "chariti," and sometimes in the accusative case as "charin."

Often, it is written with "Theou" meaning "of-God" and is thus "by the grace of God."

Romans 3:24 says,

Romans 3:24 (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The Greek translates word-for-word to ...

Being-justified freely by-the grace of-Him through the redemption the-one-that [is]-in Messiah Yeshua`:

(Looks like I found one.)

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

@Retrobyter, 

The classic view of the millennium is that regardless of whether one is pre-, a-, or post-mil, after the millennium the final judgment is held and the redeemed are separated for eternal life from the unredeemed and presumably a whole bunch of stuff ensues whereby we live forever doing stuff in service to God. 

You seem to be saying there is one 1000-year period followed by another, second, 1000-year period. 

 

Do I have that correct as to you view? If I have that incorrect can you clarify that for me? Briefly  

Sure. 

There will be ONE thousand-year period and its purpose is to chain and lock away haSatan.

The Messiah Yeshua` (Christ Jesus) returns before that happens and has a hand in his incarceration. 

During the 1,000 years, Yeshua` will begin His Kingdom here on this earth, in which time He subdues all of His enemies.

At the end of the Millennium, haSatan will be set free and he does his thing, deceiving the nations one final time in a last ditch effort to change his destiny.

The Fire will be the end of his attempt, and he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The Great White Throne Judgment of the Messiah will be when He judges and sentences the unjust people to the Lake of Fire.

And, death and the grave are thrown into the Lake of Fire, as well. This is the second death, and death will be the last enemy Yeshua` defeats.

Then, we see YHWH Elohiym re-create the surface of the planet (the earth) and its atmosphere (the "heaven" or the sky). Upon this last re-creation will land the New Jerusalem, and eternity begins.

There's no "second millennium"; the final stage is truly forever.

 

[Justin Adams]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

I cannot believe you referenced Hal Lindsay affirmatively!   That man is a false teacher if ever there was one. 

Roger that bro. Most of it is sophistry built on supposition added to conjecture and straw cities surrounded by walls of misquoted nonsense. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Ezekiel 37:1 -14 === Resurrections
Ezekiel 37:15-28 === Reign
Ezekiel 38 and 39 === Gog and Magog

If we go by what the text says, the above is the outline Ezekiel gives.

Revelation 20:4-5 === Resurrections
Revelation 20:5-7 === Reign
Revelation 20:7-10 === Gog and Magog

If we go by what the text says, the above is the outline that Revelation gives.

Notice that they give the same exact outline.

The enemy wants you to believe that Ezekiel 37:22-24 was fulfilled in 1948,
many Bibles in the commentary will even say such without explanation.

But if we just let scripture interpret scripture,
it is clear that both Revelation and Ezekiel are giving the same prophecy.

Ezekiel is the first such major declaration of promised resurrection.

Christ also referenced Ezekiel's prophecy when speaking of the resurrection:

"Come from the four winds Oh breath of life and breath upon these slain
that they may live. " Ezekiel 37:9-10

"Then shall He send forth His angels with the great sound of a trumpet
and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds"
Matthew 24:31

And we can also think of Paul:
"I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee:
concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead
am I called in question"
"And when Paul had said that,
there was dissension between the
Pharisees and Sadducees..
For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection,
neither angel nor spirit, but the Pharisees confess both"

Acts 23:6-8

When Paul read Ezekiel 37 he no doubt would
have thought that it was talking about actual resurrection.
And his belief was confirmed by the death and resurrection of Christ,
which was a major part of Paul's enthusiasm, his group was right; resurrection.

The Sadducees rejected the notions of resurrection and spirits,
so they don't even read books such as Daniel and Ezekiel,
and their views are what persist to this day in Israel.
They are hoping for a messiah that will explain everything in physical terms,
and they will get such in the anti-Christ.

 

Christ will return with a shout and the dead in Christ shall rise first
then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord in the air

An exceedingly great army of resurrected saints [Ezekiel 37:9-10, Rev 19:7-17]

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God..
When He shall come to be glorified in His saints"
2 Thess 1:7-10 that is the day Paul goes on to speak about.

"Behold the Lord comes with 10,000's of His saints to do doom upon all flesh"
Jude 1:14-15

The Lord with His great army behind Him will slay
Leviathan and the Dragon; the beast and false prophet.
It is described in detail in Revelation 19:1-21.

And Isaiah is the one who first prophesied about
resurrections then the defeat of the two beasts:

"Israel's dead men shall rise,
together with my dead body shall they arise...
In that day the Lord with His strong and severe sword
shall punish Leviathan and He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea"
Isaiah 26:19- 27:1

Then the Lord and His saints reign for 1000 years
the saints have glorified immortal bodies,
and there are people that were in caves/mountains
deep underground and on islands,
and far away from Israel that were not immediately
effected by the destruction in and around Israel,
those people come out of hiding and are ruled over by the saints.
Everyone on earth will be required to go to Jerusalem
once a year for the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:17-18

During the 1000 years Satan is bound in the bottomless pit.
After 1000 years he is let loose and he goes out
and deceives the nations into fighting against the saints.
But a fire comes down from heaven and destroys everything.

Revelation 20:7-10

2 Peter 3:10-12
That final fire causes the destruction of this current earth,
only those already immortal could withstand it. [Rev 20:6]

The sky melts and the sea turns into lava,
and the new Jerusalem comes down,
those with the ability to enter it, enter it,
everyone else is left in the eternal fire.

Revelation 21:1-8
A new sky is created and a new water source flows
from the middle of the city. Rev 21:1, 22:1

-------

That is what the Bible describes,
one arguing that there is no 1000 year reign
has to argue that "the thousand years" does not mean
what is says.

--------

[Added edit]

There is one view that could fit with the idea
that everything in Revelation generally happened already.

That would be the view that Christ indeed returned
already, reigned for 1000 years, and now is after that time.
Christ His saints and the real Israel are somewhere,
perhaps in the middle of Antarctica, and they are allowing
Satan to deceive the nations into going to fight against Them.
So perhaps even there are 3 other sections of the world
we are not aware of, with Antarctica in the middle,
the reason for the ice is that originally there was a lake of fire around Israel when Christ initially came
and fought with the beast and false prophet.
When Satan was let loose he froze that lake
as part of the deception....

Something like that is the only thing that could
explain away Revelation 20:4-9 otherwise
to hold to the view that "the thousand years"
means 'forever' one has to ignore 7-9.

-------

Indeed the reign is forever,
for 1000 years we reign on the earth with
the curse in place, death still happening,
Christ comes down and defeats the beast and false prophet,
for 1000 years the earth is then ruled by the saints,
afterwards Satan again is allowed to fight,
his final defeat includes the final destruction of this earth.
Clearly in Revelation after the 1000 years
earth is destroyed and there is a new heaven and earth:
Revelation 21:1.
In that new heaven and earth there will be no death
and the reign continues forever in that state: 21:4, 22:3-5.

[And I urge you to understand that that does not mean
a new planet and new solar system,
it means a new land and sky as defined for us in Genesis]

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Desopixi Seilynam

[Justin Adams]

Revelation is replete with recapitulations in allegory and implications.