Who is Resurrected, and When?

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Let the dead bury their dead. 

Yes, the UNSAVED die and go to hell. 

THAT is how the DEAD become dead.  

AGAIN, not me who is confused

So you think a person "becomes dead" by going to hell?  For that is what your post means.  And you claim you are not confused.  But you are.  

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I said:

"they don't get immortal bodies, as you previously claimed.  If they did, the LOF couldn't be called the second death."

Tell me what post I wrote they get immortal bodies?  OR APOLOGIZE if you wish to speak with me again.

[I apologize when I make a mistake.  Pointing out your errors doesn't require an apology.  What I said is TRUE.  As to telling you "what post" you wrote what you did is impossible.  This forum doesn't number the posts.  You should at least know what you post.  But I wouldn't have said what I did if you hadn't said what you said.]

Till then BYE.

Sure.

[DeighAnn]

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2

WHERE ELSE WOULD THE HOLY ONE SEE CORRUPTION? 



 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

ALL THE DEAD who rise receive an incorruptible body.  IN FACT the reason the lake of fire is the second death is because ONLY GOD is in charge of the 2nd death.  


CAN we be SURE there will be no more DEATH except by the lake of fire once we are changed? 


 YES because it is written
 

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


So WHERE would anyone 'killed' GO if there is NO MORE STING OF DEATH?  Where if there is no more victory of the GRAVE?  

That's right, the lake of fire.  HENCE no more corruptible bodies.  We will be like the angels in heaven. 

DID you know there were BAD ANGELS in heaven?  They got CAST OUT WITH SATAN. 

Showing that ANGELIC BODIES/spiritual bodies/ heavenly bodies/celestial bodies don't have to be IMMORTAL as there are angels in darkness in chains reserved for the lake of fire,


Did you know there are no HUMANS aka dust of the earth men in heaven?  That's right, just as angels.  Do you think the 'rich man' in paradise was in his flesh body?  NO, cause the BLOOD which was the life of his earthen body had ceased to pump hence no life in that body SO THE ONLY ONE LEFT would be the spiritual one.  BUT if and/or when someone CANT discern between the carnal and the spiritual, it just doesn't compute on any level and the same thing just keeps getting repeated over and over while the things that show it to be untrue keep getting skipped over.  

BUT HEY, if you have some verse that says


CARCASSes will be coming back to life

 as opposed to what is written about them going back to the dust of the earth, I am all ears.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Okay, I'm going to listen intently and try to understand your position on these matters:

Tell me, please, what you believe about "angelic/spiritual/heavenly/celestial bodies" and "dust-of-the-earth bodies." When were humans created, and when do they have or get these bodies?

In the process of explaining about these bodies, would you tell me when they are considered "dead" and otherwise? What happened at the making of human beings, at Creation, and at a person's birth? What happens at death, at the resurrection, at the second coming, and at the Great White Throne Judgment, and in the Lake of Fire?

I'm truly interested in what you believe, and how you see the Scriptures.

[not an echo]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

Yes. One is the primary resurrection of those who rule and reign with Jesus. The other is the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 years where the dead are judged and some inherit the kingdom and some do not. This is the same as Matt 25:31-46. 

This passage where Jesus speaks to judging based on deeds cannot be the primary resurrection as none in the primary resurrection are in need of judgement, their robes are already clean and pure and white; they have faced the beast and overcame and rule and reign with Him. 

So which Judgement is this in Matt 25:31-46? It's the one at the GWT, the 2nd resurrection. We see in Matt 25:31-46 those on His right hear, "‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.", and those on His left hear the opposite, "‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

This is what will happen at the deeds based judgement in Rev 20:13-15.

Hello Diaste,

Continuing from my previous posts (page 122, post 8), (page 124, post 3), and (page 128, post 2), the following is a copy & paste of part of the opening post of my thread on The Three Parables of Matthew 25 (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/277622-the-three-parables-of-matthew-25/).  Because it speaks to questions and comments you have expressed many times in the course of your thread, I'm using it to save me some time.  After this, I have also added several other related thoughts that I hope will be helpful in some way.

====================

THE PARABLE OF THE SHEEP AND GOATS

In this parable (Matt. 25:31-46), Jesus speaks about the fact and the time of His return to set up His Millennial Kingdom and of a judgment that will take place at that time.  At this judgment, all the "nations" of people (or Gentiles) will be gathered before Him, and He will "separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats" (vs. 32).  When all the sheep are to His right hand and all the goats are to His left, He will begin His decree.  In real time, those to His right He blesses and grants the privilege of being a part of His Millennial Kingdom and tells them that this is because of the various ways they had cared for Him.  They ask when it was that they had cared for Him so, and He explains that when they had cared for His brethren (the Jews and possibly any Daniel's 70th Week overcomers), they had cared for Him.  Then He turns to those to His left and banishes them to everlasting fire, explaining that this is because of the various ways they had not cared for Him.  When these ask when it was that they had not so cared for Him, He explains that when they had not cared for His brethren, they had not cared for Him.

It is understandable how that some might believe that this parable conveys that one's judgment is based upon works or how one treats others.  But, genuine good will towards others springs from something deeper than such works and is merely reflective of what is within one's heart.  And, no one can judge a heart like Jesus Christ.  Also, it needs to be remembered that the first and great commandment does not concern how we love others---it concerns our love for God.  But, as someone has rightly said, "When we love God the most, we can love others more."  This is because God is love (I Jn. 4:16).

I would like to make it clear that I do not believe the judgment of this parable to be the Last Judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15.  Rather, this judgment will occur soon after Christ's Second Advent, at the time of the beginning of His thousand year reign (vss. 31-32).  This means that this judgment will occur just after the end of Daniel's 70th Week.  We know that those during that time who by faith choose to die rather than take the mark of the beast will be saved as a result of being overcomers (compare Rev. 12:11, 15:2-4, and 20:4 with I Jn. 5:4-5).  Who then are those who are alluded to as the sheep and goats?  In my concept of the seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week, I can see there being some who will be able to flee and survive for a time, or some in remote areas who will be able to evade being found.  No doubt, there will be those who will be able to help others who are fleeing and those who will help the Jews when they flee (e.g., Matt. 24:15-20ff;  Lk. 21:20-24;  and Rev. 12:14-17).  Those who by faith help and minister to others who are fleeing (and especially the Jews) are the sheep of the parable.  Those who care for none but themselves are the goats of the parable.  These would not have even cared for Christ (Matt. 25:44-45).  They, as the "wicked and slothful servant" in the previous parable, will likewise be separated to Hell (Hades) immediately, to be ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna), as revealed in Revelation 20:11-15 (esp. vss. 13-14).

====================

Beyond what I speak to in the above, my mind goes to the much discussed question of who God's children will reign over during Christ's Millennial Reign and where "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" (Rev. 20:8) spring from, who will join Satan in his final uprising after Christ's reign.  I can see many possibilities, beginning with the offspring of those who are counted "sheep" in the above parable.

Those counted "sheep" are certainly saved, but this does not mean that they will be given their glorified bodies at this time.  Personally, I can see reasons why that Christ would desire them to remain in their mortal bodies during His reign---for at least some amount of time.  There will be many lessons for them to learn in their mortal bodies, as there is for us now.  Of course, conditions will be far better then than now, but as Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18).  Who knows, perhaps the Lord will grant to these "sheep" that they may have their glorified bodies 50 or 60 years into His reign, kinda corresponding to how it was for us who will be reigning.  I would not argue about it, as Paul instructed us against such (II Tim. 2:23).  I can just see it, and it is a logical possibility.  Of course, children born to them while still in their mortal bodies would be like children born to us now.

And there are other possibilities.  Those who are younger and survive Daniel's 70th Week without having reached the age of accountability would be able to continue their life into the time of Christ's reign, it would certainly seem.  It is also interesting to think of the possibilities for those of this present time who die a tragic death as a little one, or those who are miscarried or aborted.  It has always rejoiced my heart when I think of this from Isaiah 11...

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a LITTLE CHILD shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the SUCKING CHILD shall play on the hole of the asp, and the WEANED CHILD shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

I've often wondered if these little children will be those who didn't get to live their life in this world as we presently know it.  Maybe those of us who are ruling and reigning will somehow become their adoptive parents in that day!   In any case, over the years the population will certainly grow, to the point that a "number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (Rev. 20:8) will show themselves for what they truly are.

How is it that after a 1000 years of paradise conditions upon the earth that Satan could be successful in "deceiving the nations" to revolt against God and His saints?  It bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of humanity.

More to come...

(page 139, post 9)

Edited March 11, 2023 by not an echo
add post info

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @not an echo.

Have you considered how long seven years are?

Seven years ago, we were in the Primaries for both Democrats and Republicans for the 2016 election, with Iowa's caucuses held 2/1/2016, and by March 1st both Trump and Hillary had won 7 states each.

SuperBowl 50 was played on 2/7/2016 and the Broncos beat the Panthers 24-10.

On 2/13/2016, Supreme Court Justice Scalia died at the age of 79.

The 2015 movie "The Martian" was winning awards in 2016's Academy Awards.

That can kind of give a person a perspective on how long 7 years are.

The Seventieth Seven ("Week") of Daniel 9 is NOT about "tribulation." It is about the OFFER OF THE KINGDOM to the children of Israel! Verse 27 is what the MESSIAH will do, not what the Beast will do!

(1) He confirms the DAVIDIC Covenant with them, for, like the Jews in David's time owned David as their king for 7 years before he became the King of all Israel, the Jews of Yeeshuwa`s time should have owned Him as their King for 7 years, BUT

(2) because of their rejection of God's Choice for their King, He splits the Seventieth Seven in half by ending the sacrifices and gifts in the Temple, and He does this Himself by BEING the Sacrifice for all sin, and

(3) because of their wide-spread attrocities, He pronounces the Jews of Jerusalem "Desolate" (See Matthew 23:38-39) until they can say "Welcome, Comer on the Authority of YHWH God," at the end. Until then, they will suffer that which is decided against them poured out upon them - the tribulation!

Thus, the first half of the Week was the initial offer of the Messiah's Kingdom to Israel in the First Century, and the second half of the Week will be the SECOND offer of the Kingdom to Israel after He has returned. 

It is the two thousand years BETWEEN these two halves, that we should call the "tribulation" or "pressure" put upon God's people - primarily the children of Israel, especially the Jews (the children of Judah), but also the believers in the Messiah from the Gentile nations.

Just think about it; don't off-handedly dismiss it, but CONSIDER this understanding. If you can find BIBLICAL reason why you cannot believe this, then fine.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Okay, I'm going to listen intently and try to understand your position on these matters:

Tell me, please, what you believe about "angelic/spiritual/heavenly/celestial bodies" and "dust-of-the-earth bodies." When were humans created, and when do they have or get these bodies?

In the process of explaining about these bodies, would you tell me when they are considered "dead" and otherwise? What happened at the making of human beings, at Creation, and at a person's birth? What happens at death, at the resurrection, at the second coming, and at the Great White Throne Judgment, and in the Lake of Fire?

I'm truly interested in what you believe, and how you see the Scriptures.

I believe we are the sons of God who watched the earth be created.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38

I believe that took place during the world that was

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Pet

I believe that 'age' (WAS) was long lasting and it ended with the fall of Satan

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12


I believe it seriously caused God pain.  I believe just as there is going to be a NEW JERUSALEM, and as there is a Jerusalem now, there was a Jerusalem then.  

My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

21How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
Jer 4

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1


I believe that God decided to give us another chance but this time we would receive 'flesh bodies' made of the dust of the earth by being 'knit' in the womb, partakers of flesh and blood.
 

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2


26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1


I believe this also confirmed by the dream of Jacob

14And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

13And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

 

I believe that is the BODY, that we have now.  It is called the natural body.  It is flesh and BLOOD.  The life of the natural body is in the blood. 

1. flesh and blood
2. of the dust of the earth  -  terrestrial
3. knit in the mothers womb
4. mortal
5. corruptible
6. natural
7. feeds of the plants and animals of the earth  

the natural body produces a bare grain upon its death

1. there is a VOLUNTARY death of the natural body when one CHOOSES LIFE.  The natural body goes under the water, death, which produces the 'bare grain' for the spiritual body that rises up from the water and we become a citizen of heaven, no longer JUST of this world, though we still walk through the valley of the shadow of death, we have ALREADY risen with Christ in spirit, not in spiritual body

2.  there is the involuntary death of the natural body when the blood dies.  That will produce a bare grain for the spiritual body that descends into the grave, the corruption of the earth where it stays until Christ


"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Genesis 9:4 KJVreturns. 

 

So AT DEATH of the natural body the SPIRITUAL BODY replaces it.  Every seed a body.  And every natural body produces a seed. 


It is not of this 'seen' realm, so we neither SEE it or FEEL it, but it is none the less just as REAL in the 'unseen' realm.  When Christ returns the unseen will become the seen.  

The spiritual body

1.  when the silver cord parts (presently unseen will become the seen)
2. not made with hands but of the heavens - celestial
3. to every seed GOD gives the body HE SEES FIT
4. IS either be mortal or immortal
5. incorruptible (EXCEPT when subject to 2nd death)
6. spiritual 
7. feeds of the body and blood of Christ

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. John 6:55 

SO THAT BIRTH, being born of God, is the beginning of the spiritual body for the saved.  



 

So we can either be spiritually 'dead' and only have a natural body until we leave this realm and move on to the next  UNSAVED, no faith, 

or 

we can become a son of God and become spiritually 'alive' by being born again, born from above, born of God by dying to this world and being raised up in the spiritual one, living both the SEEN life and the UNSEEN at the same time.  

When BORN AGAIN, we become a NEW CREATURE.   We have works that will follow us for rewards.  Our good works make it so we won't be found naked. 

If not born again no rewards because the 'spiritual body' never got fed so never grew so going to be naked. 



Natural body EITHER spiritually dead or born again

Natural body dies STILL EITHER spiritually dead or born again 

BUT

no longer do the two go to the same place.  

The spiritually dead have had their natural body die and produce a seed for the body going to hell that will remain there until Christ returns and the dead rise.  Physical in that realm, unseen in this one.  None the less real, none the less physical. 

The born AGAIN have their natural body die and they are RAISED up to heaven, where Christ receives them unto Himself and brings them to the Father and they RECEIVE in their spiritual body the things done in the natural.  GOD give every seed and body and what ever body He sees fit is what they get. No second death because they are of the first resurrection, aka have received their immortality.   They will return with Him to rule and reign and will go on to the NHNE.    


The spiritually dead will rise when Christ returns and are in their spiritual bodies (as they have been since the death of the natual), but since they face the 2nd they REMAIN MORTAL. 
So for the Lords Day they have risen up and are 'alive', but they are still spiritually dead and mortal until they either find their name in the book of life and receive their immortality or Lake of fire and 2nd death in which both their body and soul is destroyed and all memory of them perishes and like smoke going up in the air, they vanish.  

Birth life and death and resurrection of the unsaved
born of woman natural body, live, die now spiritual body, go to hell, rise up from hell when Christ returns still mortal, have 1000 years to get name in book of life to become immortal or its lake of fire 2nd death body and soul destroyed.

Birth life and death and resurrection of SAVED
born of woman natural body, live, COME TO FAITH die and raise up born from above, spiritual body being fed within natural body, natural body dies, spiritual body goes to heaven, returns the alive and remaining join up with them to rule and reign. 

That is as short as I could make it and that is leaving out a whole lot of details that SHOULD be included, but this is just for an overall view.  

I am tired and going to sleep and will re-read it in the morning but am posting so it doesn't get lost with my horrible and sporadic internet connection that is getting worse every day.  

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Who is resurrected, and when?   THAT is the name of the thread, correct?

How do you FIGURE going from this day to the Lords Day IS NOT on topic? 

How can the UNSEEN realm becoming the SEEN realm NOT be the topic when that is the day the alive and remaining are raised up and given new bodies?  AKA who is resurrected and when.  That is the day when the DEAD are resurrected, aka who is resurrected and when.  

MAYBE you should start a topic ON WHAT YOU specifically WISH to discuss instead of trying to get me to stop discussing this one.   

This discussion was begun with the idea in mind that the scriptures say certain people are resurrected in the 1st resurrection, in contrast to the popular modern teaching that every believer from Adam to the 2nd coming are resurrected in the 1st resurrection.

I don't know how the unseen becoming the seen answers the question Who is Resurrected, and When?

Are all believers from all time resurrected at the 2nd advent? Or is it just those from GT who were beheaded and overcame the beast? 

Immortality and the unseen and never die don't deal with those two questions.

I guess since I started this topic in May of last year I'd like to see it stay on topic.

Feel free to start any topic you wish.

So do you have any insight on whether or not all are resurrected from all time at the 2nd advent, or is it like Rev 7 and Rev 20 says?

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

I disagree. I will stick with the scriptural evidence.

Dan 7:27- And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Eph3:21- Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

I think Paul was referring this (essentially, forever);

Isa 45:17- But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

I totally agree with this. It is truth. 

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

You have heard the term, "end of the age" as an alternate to, "end of the world."

Isa 45:18- For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

I am not one of those who thinks the planet will be reduced to particles, I don't think you do either.

Correct. I do not. There is a vast difference between the end of the age and the end of the world and I do not see them as synonymous.

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

There are three defining terms/phrases that make up the way it is understood in scripture and its contemporary readers. They are;

2 Pe 3:6- Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Mat 13:40- As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (32 times)

Mat 12:32- And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (5 times)

And this idea would, I think, tend toward the 2nd resurrection as when the tares and the wheat are gathered together and the wheat gathered into the barn and the tares burned. 

That would then be parallel to Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15. Which would also mean the GWTJ is a just and fair judgement where not all are thrown into the lake of fire. 

This in turn means the modern idea of a resurrection of the saved and a separate resurrection of the unsaved isn't correct. 

Rev 20

And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

On the face of it this has to be a fair and just judgement, knowing God is righteous and compassionate. If the dead are judged by deeds here, then the deeds are the important evidence and both righteousness and unrighteousness are determined by the evidence.

14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And IF anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So it's only those names not found that are thrown into the lake of fire. That means some, many, most[hopefully] names are found and are not thrown into the lake of fire. 

Verse 15 is a Boolean operator; IF, THEN. It's in no way a forgone conclusion of a singular destiny for those of the 2nd resurrection. The 2nd death wields influence at this judgement, like a prosecutor, it is not an automatic mandatory death sentence. 

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

Take note especially of Mat 13:40.

"0As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.f"

Indeed; weeded out of the righteous who are saved. This is the fact of it. I see no timing here for when this occurs in relation to the 2nd advent and the millennial kingdom. From only the above I could surmise whatever I like about the timing of this, and the identity and origin of the weeds and the righteous. 

I cannot do that. I must look elsewhere for those answers.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

 

THE PARABLE OF THE SHEEP AND GOATS

It is understandable how that some might believe that this parable conveys that one's judgment is based upon works or how one treats others.  But, genuine good will towards others springs from something deeper than such works and is merely reflective of what is within one's heart.  And, no one can judge a heart like Jesus Christ.  Also, it needs to be remembered that the first and great commandment does not concern how we love others---it concerns our love for God.  But, as someone has rightly said, "When we love God the most, we can love others more."  This is because God is love (I Jn. 4:16).

It's clear this is a deeds based Judgment. Just like in Rev 20.

And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

I mean, I read 'deeds' here and I don't even have to twist anything to find the idea.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

I would like to make it clear that I do not believe the judgment of this parable to be the Last Judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15. 

Perhaps you should start believing.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Rather, this judgment will occur soon after Christ's Second Advent, at the time of the beginning of His thousand year reign (vss. 31-32).  This means that this judgment will occur just after the end of Daniel's 70th Week. 

That seems odd, doesn't it? We are resurrected and taken off the earth, transformed, meet the Lord in the air, to be forever with the Lord, but this same group then is judged because there are goats among the sheep?

Remember your position here that it's all believers from all time that are taken at the 1st resurrection. There are no goats in that resurrection. 

Doesn't make sense according to the evidence.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

  Those who care for none but themselves are the goats of the parable. 

These would not have even cared for Christ (Matt. 25:44-45).  They, as the "wicked and slothful servant" in the previous parable, will likewise be separated to Hell (Hades) immediately, to be ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna), as revealed in Revelation 20:11-15 (esp. vss. 13-14).

It can't be thus. That means one resurrection is pretrib, one is some undetermined time between the pretrib resurrection and the 2nd resurrection, and then yet another after the 1000 years. 

Do you have any evidence for this or is solely speculation?

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

====================

Beyond what I speak to in the above, my mind goes to the much discussed question of who God's children will reign over during Christ's Millennial Reign and where "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" (Rev. 20:8) spring from, who will join Satan in his final uprising after Christ's reign.  I can see many possibilities, beginning with the offspring of those who are counted "sheep" in the above parable.

You did say, "Rather, this judgment will occur soon after Christ's Second Advent, at the time of the beginning of His thousand year reign."

But now the sheep are the ones after the 1000 years? So you add a resurrection and a judgement. Any evidence?

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Those counted "sheep" are certainly saved, but this does not mean that they will be given their glorified bodies at this time.  Personally, I can see reasons why that Christ would desire them to remain in their mortal bodies during His reign---for at least some amount of time.  There will be many lessons for them to learn in their mortal bodies, as there is for us now.  Of course, conditions will be far better then than now, but as Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18).  Who knows, perhaps the Lord will grant to these "sheep" that they may have their glorified bodies 50 or 60 years into His reign, kinda corresponding to how it was for us who will be reigning.  I would not argue about it, as Paul instructed us against such (II Tim. 2:23).  I can just see it, and it is a logical possibility.  Of course, children born to them while still in their mortal bodies would be like children born to us now.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

And there are other possibilities.  Those who are younger and survive Daniel's 70th Week without having reached the age of accountability would be able to continue their life into the time of Christ's reign, it would certainly seem.  It is also interesting to think of the possibilities for those of this present time who die a tragic death as a little one, or those who are miscarried or aborted.  It has always rejoiced my heart when I think of this from Isaiah 11...

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a LITTLE CHILD shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the SUCKING CHILD shall play on the hole of the asp, and the WEANED CHILD shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

I've often wondered if these little children will be those who didn't get to live their life in this world as we presently know it.  Maybe those of us who are ruling and reigning will somehow become their adoptive parents in that day!   In any case, over the years the population will certainly grow, to the point that a "number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (Rev. 20:8) will show themselves for what they truly are.

How is it that after a 1000 years of paradise conditions upon the earth that Satan could be successful in "deceiving the nations" to revolt against God and His saints?  It bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of humanity.

More to come...

Nice story. Still doesn't deal with the immutable fact;

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

"They" being the beheaded and overcomers. Not all from all time.