Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

I Strongly Disagree

Your eschatology is Sci-Fi found no place in scripture "Fact"

1.) Two resurrection 1,000 years apart

2.) Eternal glorified bodies, hanging out on earth with dying mortals for 1,000 years

3.) Jesus on a earthly throne, performing the duty of Chief funeral director with mortals dying around him for 1,000 years

Morbid!

Where in Scripture do you read that people are dying over this 1000 year period.  No one dies. Living water flows out from Jerusalem.

Very few people believe anything you post.  There is always an argument.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Your claims are Sci-Fi and that's being nice, nowhere are they found in scripture

If you want to describe Rev 20 as sci-fi, I guess that's your privilege, but you are in very deep error.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I Strongly Disagree

Your eschatology is Sci-Fi found no place in scripture "Fact"

1.) Two resurrection 1,000 years apart

2.) Eternal glorified bodies, hanging out on earth with dying mortals for 1,000 years

3.) Jesus on a earthly throne, performing the duty of Chief funeral director with mortals dying around him for 1,000 years

Morbid!

OK, so you don't like what Rev 20 says.  But I believe what Rev 20 says.  

You talk about sci-fi, but it's YOUR view of Rev 20 that really sinks to the level of sci-fi.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Your claim is "False"

All that are in the Graves will hear his voice and come forth, "All"!

Your claim of two resurrections that are 1,000 years apart is "False"

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It doesn't take that much discernment to understand the FIRST resurrection is "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) and the SECOND resurrection will be 1,000 years later, at the end of the MK, and jus before the GWT judgment.

It's all in Rev 20 and very easy to read and understand.

[Your closest friendnt]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

If one wants to take this another step forward.  All the beheaded martyrs during the 70th Week  who are under the Altar in Heaven have all been assembled before the event of Rev 9:20 has happened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Those are ongoing situations from the beginning...we had James beheaded and it has never stopped since that time....an ongoing situation everyone will rein with Jesus in his own time...Paul while he lived...James also while he lived and in their own place and apart from each other...have you ever thought about that that it is not one even like a group event and then that's it...many who are not born will rein with Jesus...when the others are keep on reining till they die...

Is the reining of one thousand years after their death...and what is after that? 

[not an echo]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:45 AM, Diaste said:

This is what I'm getting at. Exactly what group is this that reigns with Him for 1000 years? Logically for the dead in Christ to rise it's not necessary that all of them rise. That's the most popular interpretation but there's that sticky qualifier in Rev 20:4-5. I don't know what to do with that at this point.

 

On 2/9/2023 at 3:41 AM, Diaste said:

This is a question for which I do not have a great answer. 

On the one hand I think, "Yes, of course."

But then I wonder about the Matt 25:31-46 judgement. Did the sheep already go to be with the Lord? I have the same question about Rev 20:11-15.

 

On 2/13/2023 at 3:56 AM, Diaste said:

Okay. I tend toward this too. In fact for decades my thinking was all from all time reigning. That's what I first was taught many years ago.

Of late I'm wondering about Rev 20:11-15 and how this doesn't look like it's a single predetermined destiny for all appearing at the GWT.

 

On 11/10/2022 at 4:22 AM, Diaste said:

The resurrected dead in Christ and the living who remain at His coming are those who faced the beast and came out from within GT.

The rest of the dead wait till the 1000 years are finished and pass before the GWT where most are found written in the Book of Life. 

That means if I die today I am not resurrected at His coming as I did not face the beast, nor the image, but must wait till the GWT and my works will be judged.

Moving forward from my preceding post (page 141, post 7), you may remember times when I have said something to the effect that sometimes we can't see what the truth of the matter is until we discover what it can't be.  I've experienced this myself.  By the many things you have said in the course of your thread (my first 3 quotes of you above are merely examples), I believe this thinking may be a key to you arriving at some of the answers you are seeking.  In contemplation of how to best lead in to what I would now like to speak to, consider what I quoted of you last.  Your middle sentence is representative of what you have now stated many times.  It is full of implications that should be considered in the light of more Scripture.

While not what my focus will here be, what you say in the latter part of your middle sentence is an example.  Where do you get that "most are found written in the Book of Life"?  Jesus said, "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14).

Turning to what I most want to focus upon, you state, "The rest of the dead wait till the 1000 years are finished and pass before the GWT..."  Do you believe this concerning Enoch?  Remember that he "walked with God: and he was not;  for God took him" (Gen. 5:24).  Where do you believe God took him?  Backing up, what about Abel?  He is mentioned just before Enoch in Hebrews 11, where it reads that he "offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" (vs. 4).  While he was not taken in the manner that Enoch was, do you believe God allowed him to go where Enoch was?  What about Noah?  In Hebrews 11, he is mentioned next, after Enoch, and it is said of him that "he became heir of the righteousness which is by faith" (vs. 7).  Do you believe God allowed him to go where Enoch was?  What about Daniel and Job, whom God esteems on the highest level, with Noah (Ezek. 14:14)?  And Adam, though nothing is mentioned of him in this regard, do you think God allowed him to go where his son and closest descendants went?

Do you believe what you are saying when it comes to those who died and were "gathered to [their] people"?  Like Abraham (Gen. 25:8), or Isaac (Gen. 35:29), or Jacob (Gen. 49:33)?  What about Aaron (Num. 20:24), or Moses (Num. 27:13)?  Can we not rightly suppose that this would be the case for all who were (and are) "Abraham's seed" (Gal. 3:29)?  Are you believing that being "gathered to [their] people means grave wise?  Or, would this mean being actually "gathered to [their] people",  like where Enoch, Abel, and Noah were, which were their people?

What about Elijah (II Kg. 2:1, 11)?  If he or any of the foregoing are destined to yet stand before God at the GWTJ, what would the reason be?  I mean, are you believing that they went on to Heaven, but they are going to be judged later concerning whether they get to stay there or not?

Are you perhaps thinking that there is some difference that I am missing because the case was unique with Enoch and Elijah?  If so, what about the others already mentioned?  Or, what do you do with Moses being seen with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3-4)?  What is it that you feel detracts from what Scripture is clearly supporting?  More inclusive than what we have seen so far, in Jesus' reply to the Sadducees, "touching the resurrection of the dead" He asked them, "have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob?  God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matt. 22:31-32).  So, where do you believe Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and all "the living" are now?  Where is it that they are "living"?

Consider what Jesus spoke concerning Lazarus, the rich man, and Abraham upon the death of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk. 16:19-31).  How do you square what you have so many times said with the example of Lazarus?  Or, what about the thief that was saved on the cross (Lk. 23:42-43)?  What about Stephen when he was being stoned (Acts 7:54-60)?  Are you seeing any dots that need to be connected here?  The account says, "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (vs. 59).  To where do you believe his spirit would have been received?  Paul speaks to this.  First of all, he says, "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord" (II Cor. 5:6).  Then he continues, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:8).

I'm reminded of what is said concerning Rachel when she was giving birth to Benjamin.  "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin" (Gen. 35:18).  Where do you believe her soul departed to?  Paul speaks words that ring very similar!  To the Philippians he said, "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ;  which is far better:  Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you" (Phil. 1:23-24).  Nearer to the actual time of his death, he told Timothy, "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand" (II Tim. 4:6).

In consideration of what you have been wrestling with in Revelation 20, what do you make of the 144,000 in chapter 14?  When they die, they are seen in Heaven (vss. 1-3).  What about the 70th Week martyrs in chapter 15?  When they die, they are seen in Heaven (vss. 2-4).  Are you believing that it is only these---or mostly these---whose souls will go on to Heaven when they die?

I think of what Jesus said to Martha, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die.  Believest thou this?" (Jn. 11:26).  At our church, when someone dies (meaning their body!), we never say they die.  We say "they crossed over!"  Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;  but is passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24).

Certainly related, but going in a little different direction, note that the word "condemnation" that Jesus used in the above verse is from the Greek word krisis (G2920), which is almost always translated "judgment".  Interestingly, and closely akin, Jesus earlier said to Nicodemus the following, from John 3...

17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Even more interesting is that the words "condemned" in verse 18 are from the Greek word krino (G2919), which is more usually translated "judged",  AS IN THE EVENT OF THE GWTJ.  Consider again, from Revelation 20...

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged (krino /G2919) out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged (krino /G2919) every man according to their works.

Do you believe what Jesus told Nicodemus holds for us as well, that "He that believeth on Him is not condemned (krino /G2919)"?   

I have often likened prophecies of the last days to prophetic puzzle pieces that are meant to fit together.  My impression in the course of this thread is that much too often, there are pieces being looked at---the same pieces---over and over and over---but never being joined to their other related pieces.  Even if we have all the pieces of a puzzle laying before us, if we only look at them and keep examining them and pointing out their peculiar shapes---without ever putting them together with the other related pieces---we never get any closer to seeing the puzzle come together.  Never.  All I'm trying to do Diaste is help with the assembling of the pieces.

Don't forget that all I have shared in my previous posts supports the position I have expressed as well, which represents just a small portion of the overall picture.  I hope you will go back and review my previous posts in light of the light that each contributes.

More to come...

(page 170, post 7)

Edited March 11, 2023 by not an echo
add post info

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

It doesn't take that much discernment to understand the FIRST resurrection is "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) and the SECOND resurrection will be 1,000 years later, at the end of the MK, and jus before the GWT judgment.

It's all in Rev 20 and very easy to read and understand.

Your continued claim of two resurrections that are 1,000 years apart for the righteous-wicked is "False", the righteous and wicked are both resurrected at the same voice before your eyes, read God's truth again and again

Do you really think for a minute you have readers convinced of your teaching, when God's words before your eyes are screaming otherwise

1 Samuel 15:23(a)

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. 

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Edited February 25, 2023 by truth7t7

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Here is the evidence, in the very same scriptures you keep referring to over and over.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

- Revelation 7:13-15 (KJV)

Why are they before the throne of God?  …because they and their robes were washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb.  These are the ones saved by God’s Grace. 

Yes. The evidence the ones who have the clean robes came out of great tribulation.

This would be the perfect opportunity to say something along the lines of 'every believer in Jesus Christ from all time'. The elder doesn't say that. The elder says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation..." 

The elder even asked the questions. Who? and When? Then he answered his questions...the ones that were in GT. 

He did not say 'all from all time'. 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

double click failed.  How many times do you need these questions answered?  Are you paying attention.  "those who belong to Him" are all who are saved.  And you still haven't proven otherwise.  You need to explain carefully WHY any group of saved people would NOT be included in that phrase.  But you don't.]

No, I do not. You think I do. It's just a dodge. It's fine. I understand. 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Pretty clear to me, just as "those who belong to Him" is very clear.  Anyone who has "come out of the Great Tribulation" refers to believers.

Believers who came from a certain time under certain conditions, you're almost there.

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Of course you'd have to twist it that way in order to protect your opinions.  However, you are unable to prove or even explain clearly how any believer would be left out of the phrase "those who belong to Him".  It couldn't be any more clear.

I'm not trying to. That's your question. Start a thread. 

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sure.  ALL believers belong to Him.  Adam belongs to Him.  Moses belongs to Him.  ALL believers belong to Him.  He redeemed ALL of them.  Are you not real clear on that concept?

ALL souls belong to Him.

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sure.  And 2 Tim 2:12 says the same thing.  So what?  ALL faithful believers, when resurrected "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) will reign with Him.  Rom 8:17b says that too.  So your evidence is incomplete.  ALL faithful believers from Adam on will reign with Him.  And ALL believers belong to Him.  That doesn't need to be proved.  It's like saying, on a clear cloudless sunny day, "the sky is blue" and you come along and say "prove it".  Just look up and see for yourself.  ALL believers belong to Him, and if you disagree, you just don't know the Word of God.

You keep adding ALL. Show the evidence of ALL. Must be written somewhere.

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You don't post evidence.  You post your opinion of "those who belong to Him" ONLY include, rather than the obvious fact that ALL believers belong to Him.

Since I'm exploring Who and When in the context of Rev 7 and Rev 20 that question doesn't come up. Perhaps start a Topic. 

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Are you willing to state here and now that NOT ALL believers belong to Him?  That's the only way your claim can be proven.  So hop to it.

This very much sounds like a good idea for it's own thread.