Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Selah7 said:

 

Incorruption and immortality are not the same.  

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

- 1 Corinthians 15:53 (KJV)

This happens at the same time on the Day of the Lord when Jesus returns, but these are two groups of people.  

Thanks for clarifying what you believe but I guess we just disagree on this point.  

Shalom, Selah7.

No, of course they aren't the same; however, according to Paul's argument here, they HAPPEN TOGETHER, and no, they don't happen to two different groups of people, at the same Second Coming of the Lord, btw, but they happen to the same ONE group of people, those who belong to the Lord!

You can disagree with me if you choose to do so; however, all I'm doing is stating facts. I've not altered them in any way; all I'm doing is presenting those facts and pursuing them to their logical conclusion. So, the real question is this: With whom are you REALLY disagreeing?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Diaste, we were discussing immortality, remember?  But if you want to discuss trumpets and seals, we can certainly do that.  Wanna start a thread?

The point of my previous comments has been INCORRUPTIBILITY versus IMMORTALITY and when and to whom these changes occur.

Shalom, Selah7.

Ummmm..... Actually, this is Diaste's thread. If one wants to pursue something other than what he originally asked, "Who is Resurrected, and When?" So, if one has veered away from the original subject, then it is that person who must start a new thread.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Selah7 said:

*continued …

So immortality applies only to the overcomers.  See, the incorruptible soul is still mortal and the sting of death is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life. Immortality for the soul in the Millennium age is only for those souls who have already been granted eternal life, and did not worship Satan, and take on his name, and the number of the beast.

Shalom, Selah7.

See, here is the wrong definition of "soul" sneaking into the topic again! The "incorruptible soul" is NOT something other than the resurrected breathing body! The "soul" doesn't exist without the body!  A "creature" in biblical definitions is not some malformed thing out of a horror movie. It is a "created being." The "created being" was "haa'Aadaam" "Adam" or "the red [man]!" And, he was created by God first forming the lifeless body and then PUFFING a PUFF of air into the man's nostrils, and "the red [man]" or "Adam" BECAME a living, "air-breathing created being!" THAT'S what a "soul" is! One cannot have an "incorruptible" or "no longer able to decay" "air-breathing created being" unless the Lord Yeeshuwa` first resurrects that body back to life! And, if He's going to take the time to resurrect that body back to life, it will be IMMORTAL, ETERNAL, INCORRUPTIBLE life! There's no "half way" with God or with His Messiah!

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

You can disagree with me if you choose to do so;

Yes, I’ll disagree.  Thank you just the same. 

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Selah7.

Ummmm..... Actually, this is Diaste's thread. If one wants to pursue something other than what he originally asked, "Who is Resurrected, and When?" So, if one has veered away from the original subject, then it is that person who must start a new thread.

Who is resurrected?  The overc0mers who have received immortality—the saints/Elect—are the only ones who partake in the FIRST Resurrection.  This happens on the Day of the Lord when Jesus Christ returns.   Selah

[Selah7]

47 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

The "incorruptible soul" is NOT something other than the resurrected breathing body!

Yes!  

 

49 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

if He's going to take the time to resurrect that body back to life, it will be IMMORTAL, ETERNAL, INCORRUPTIBLE life! There's no "half way" with God or with His Messiah!

Actually, no.  Read again my previous posts.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'm trying to understand how the 'dead in Christ' aligns

I do so by treating them as all being parts of the same picture. Paul uses words that include ALL of the dead in Christ and ALL of the believers that, "are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" i.e. live through the great tribulation. If it didn't include all these, "at the coming of the Lord", for example. THEN we would be looking at a resurrections for martyrs only.  

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This plainly declares ALL in Christ who have passed away will be resurrected when Jesus comes. No waiting for another thousand yrs. They are in that FIRST of the series.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is it 'all from all time' and just ignore Rev 2o? Or is it Rev 20 defines who the 'dead in Christ' are as relates to the 1st resurrection? The Rev 20 resurrected are the only ones in the prote resurrection according to Rev 20,so this is not all the dead in Christ from all time.

Well this is where we just have to disagree. As far as I can tell, it wasn't understood that way in the N.T. Perhaps you have a new doctrine that all have missed.

[WilliamL]

26 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Who is resurrected?  The overc0mers who have received immortality—the saints/Elect—are the only ones who partake in the FIRST Resurrection.  This happens on the Day of the Lord when Jesus Christ returns.   Selah

Second sentence true. Third sentence, misleading.

"The first/πρωτη/prōtē resurrection" is a term used only in Rev. 20:5-6. In the context, πρωτη means first in preeminence, not order. Because, different groups of immortalized overcomers will be included under this heading, such as the raptured saints at the Parousia of Christ, the later-raptured Two Witnesses, as well as the still-later resurrected saints who will have been beheaded under the reign of the Beast-kingdom.

Because this passage of Rev. 20:5-6 has brought so much confusion, I have devoted a full blog to it here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2840-the-“first”-resurrection-of-revelation-205-6/

 

[Retrobyter]

24 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Who is resurrected?  The overc0mers who have received immortality—the saints/Elect—are the only ones who partake in the FIRST Resurrection.  This happens on the Day of the Lord when Jesus Christ returns.   Selah

Shalom, Selah7.

I agree! The saints or the elect or the selected ones or the chosen ones are all those who partake in the FIRST Resurrection! That's NOT just those who are "born-again Christians," though! The "saints" or "holy ones" also include all those BEFORE the Messiah was born who still trusted God to bring the Messiah!

One who is "holy" is NOT THE SAME as one who is "righteous." A "holy" person is anyone God has SINGLED OUT for His own purposes. Ideally, that person is also "righteous," but it has not always been the case. When God so chooses a person, that person is one who is chosen, one who has been sanctified, one who has been made a "saint." Therefore, this group includes ALL of the children of Israel, as well! Anyone who knew of the Covenant that God made with his messiah David to make his Seed to be the Eternal Messiah of God - God's CHOICE for Israel's King - was anticipating the arrival of the Messiah! 

The number is MUCH bigger than you think! It counts ALL those upon whom the second death has no authority!

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi FreeGrace

1 Corinthians 15:23   But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Yes everyone in his own order.  The firstfruits are the 144K.  They will be raised first, then 'afterward' they that are Christ's at his coming.

But 1 Cor 15:23 plainly says that "Christ, the firstfruits".  Meaning, Christ IS the "firstfruits".  This is true because Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a glorified body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Since  both Jesus and His discples raised a number of people from the dead, plus several accounts in the OT of dead bodies coming back to life, Acts 26:23 can only refer to the resurrection body that is immortal.  Lazarus did die again, and the Bible records that the Jews and leaders wanted to kill him after his resurrection.  So that shows that he came back in his mortal body.  The same for all the people who were raised from the dead in the Bible before the time "when He comes", which will be the Second Advent.

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Who are the firstfruits?  Those who followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes.  The Lamb has to come first before he can be followed.  He came with the new testament.

These people are not being referenced in 1 Cor 15:23 and refer to something else.  There is no comma in 1 Cor 15:23 between "Christ" and "firstfruits".  It means that Christ is the FIRST to receive a glorified immortal body.

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Yes, all believers who follow Christ belong to him.  The loyal servants of God in the OT did not know Christ.  They didn't even know his name, but they knew there was someone to come, their Messiah, because he was prophesied about.

[double click failed.  They certainly did know Him.  The Word "Christ" in the NT means "Messiah" in the OT.  So of course they did.

Consider what the author of Hebrews says:  Heb 11:26 - He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.]

  Their places in the kingdom are secured.  God has a job for them during the millennium.  They will be the judges and counsellors, brought back in their flesh to organize Israel under Christ..They will die again, but in the 2nd resurrection they will be raised spirit.

The second resurrection will be only for the unbelievers.  In fact, Rev 20:4-6 makes this very clear.  The "first resurrection" is the one mentioned in 1 Cor 15:23, which is for all believers.  And the "second resurrection" is 1,000 years later.

3 hours ago, Sister said:

  Revelation 20:12   And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The book of life is also opened in the 2nd judgement.  It's not closed, so there is hope for some, judged differently according to their 'works'. 

If there is a 'first resurrection' mentioned, then there should be another one to follow?

Yes, there will be another resurrection, as already explained above.  But Rev 20:12 is the GWT judgment, where the unbelievers are cast into the LOF.

3 hours ago, Sister said:

  Revelation 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Right.  And the remnant of Israel from the past.  Raised in their flesh (not raised to spirit) Ezekiel chapter 37.

Yes.

Please explain what you mean by "raised in their flesh (not raised to spirit) in Eek 37.

Provide verse #s as well.  Thanks.

All resurrections involve the body.  There is no mention of "soul resurrection" or "spirit resurrection" so I'm curious where you got that from.