Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Alive]

15 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

I believe the event seen below is future and literal, and will take place at the second coming

I believe the rolling up like a scroll is symbolic speech representing the literal future event seen below 

Do you believe fire came from heaven and literally destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?

We're the plagues brought at the hand of Moses in Egypt literal or symbolic?

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Good points...I have no good reason to think the two events mentioned are not to be taken literally.

I do have some reason to think the other is not to be taken literally as humans would commonly hold to...as I have suggested.

Is the word 'soon' to be taken literally?

:-)

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, Alive said:

Good points...I have no good reason to think the two events mentioned are not to be taken literally.

I do have some reason to think the other is not to be taken literally as humans would commonly hold to...as I have suggested.

Is the word 'soon' to be taken literally?

:-)

I oppose the preterist views concerning Revelation chapter 1 if that's the Bush your beating?

[Alive]

57 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

I oppose the preterist views concerning Revelation chapter 1 if that's the Bush your beating?

I just asked a simple question. I only wish to know the truth. I could care less about any particular eschatology.

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, Alive said:

Good points...I have no good reason to think the two events mentioned are not to be taken literally.

I do have some reason to think the other is not to be taken literally as humans would commonly hold to...as I have suggested.

Is the word 'soon' to be taken literally?

:-)

Post your scripture relating to "Soon" and its context, we will go from there?

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited December 1, 2022 by truth7t7

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

You have absolutely NO proof of this claim. I checked at least 13 translations-the sky vanished like a scrolling up! It says that when the sky rolls up the people of the world see, "the FACE" of Jesus. And it so happens that He will be seen from horizon to horizon! The entire planet sees him at the same time and they try to hide.

Shalom, Uriah.

First, the sky doesn't "vanish." Gases don't just up and "disappear," as if to "go away."  It is MATTER, even if invisible, consisting of molecules and atoms! It's the VISIBLE CLOUDS that roll up like a scroll! Some think this would be reminiscent of a mushroom cloud, but we are talking about a STRAIGHT LINE roll cloud like a scroll, not a mushroom, which suggests a IMPACT line!

Second, they don't necessarily SEE the face (Greek: prosoopon = "face; countenance"); they just SAY that they don't WANT to see His face! And, they could be saying they don't WANT to see His "countenance," which means the "LOOK on His face!"

Third, just how would "the entire planet" see Him at the same time? The "entire planet" is ROUND like a ball! There would have to be multiple images of His face all over the planet! And, what if someone is positioned halfway between two images of His face. Do they know what they are looking at?

I believe it just means that they know that the End Times are DEFINITELY HERE, when the meteorites start to fall! And, they know that judgment is coming and are trying to hide from what's coming, knowing they would not fair well in a judgment!

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 6:13- And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her  untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Pretty much the same report here. Ancient people referred to what we call meteors as shooting stars or falling stars.

Absolutely right! I agree with this understanding of what the falling stars are.

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Again, NO proof of this at all!  It is a general statement, thus inclusive of all of them.

Well, in your way of thinking, perhaps. But, I believe that the events of the opening of the seals, are FOLLOWED by the sounding of the trumpets or air-raid sirens, and they are FOLLOWED by the pouring of the bowls of plagues. I find NO evidence that any of these instances are repeats of the same events. Rather, I find enough information between them to suggest that they telescope out from each other! The seventh seal expands into the seven trumpets, and the seventh trumpet expands into the seven bowls of plagues. The wording suggests sequential fulfillment!

Based on this line of thinking, then, the moving of the mountains and islands out of their places in Revelation 6:14 does NOT negate the fact that the mountains and islands are still there until Revelation 16:20 in the pouring of the seventh plague bowl.

Also, we must remember that what we are reading here are the things that Yochanan actually SEES in this vision of the future! Can he see "every mountain and island on the whole earth?" Or, does He mean all of the mountains and islands HE CAN SEE from wherever his position is within the vision?

See, one of the GREATEST FLAWS of a theoretical eschatologist is to make everything he reads too universal in nature. Not everything that says "all" is indeed all there are! Some are just "all" that the writer sees or knows about! Thus, it must be limited by the eye-witness account of the writer! Now, IF God or an angel steps in and TELLS him that it applies to all there is, THEN we can take the information to be universal in scope. We don't have that in Revelation 6:14.

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Nope! Check out (1) below. The focus is on the result-dripping. THAT is what is it is compared to as the "meteors" fall. 

 

In fact, the meteors (and huge hailstones)  are the debris ejected into space by the asteroid in Rev 8:81

This DEPENDS upon the SIZE, SPEED and VECTOR of the meteorite! But, we are told that we don't have one HUGE meteorite, but that the asteroid or comet or comet's tail is broken apart and comes down in SEVERAL smaller meteorites, such as the meteorite the size of a mountain cast into the sea. The earth survives, because the earth is prophesied to survive!

Now, granted, it will go through MAJOR cateclismic events, but the planet itself survives! Only the CRUST, with men's works upon it, is destroyed. The picture you're showing here suggests a DIRECT STRIKE! But, that is NOT predicted in Scripture! NOT ONLY does the earth survive, but many of the people upon the earth survive, as well! In point of fact, they will still have their nations to which they belong!

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Wrong, I keep on adding more, not stuck on one verse alone about the city.

Well, that's good, but are you absolutely SURE that you're not missing something? What I was talking about was that you are looking right at these verses and not getting the message that the CITY is called "the bride of the Messiah," the "Lamb's wife!"

It's kind of like when a man has been working on a colossal project for a long time, and it's finally accomplished! The man might say that the project is "his BABY!" He designed it; he worked with it; he fought to fund it; he struggled through its challenges; he rejoiced in the successes he had within the project's stages, and now, it's finally finished! "His BABY" is FINALLY a reality!

Yeeshuwa`, the Master Carpenter and, as the Word of God, the Creator of the earth and  sky and the seas, has been BUSY over the last 2,000 years helping in the designing and building of this City, His Father's HOUSE or Bedouin TENT, in zero G! Haven't we discovered that zero G is the best place to build flawless crystals, found in the walls of the city and in its twelve foundations? And, now, the Awesome City, the New Jerusalem, is finally FINISHED! It's ready for presentation! It's His "Bride!" And, He's ready for His "Bride" to be inhabited!

I really don't understand all the animosity and bickering about it. I'm just trying to point out the wonderful information that God has shown me about this Huge City! I'm with you, brother, on much of what you say! I SO look forward to the arrival of the New Jerusalem, BUT ...

Before it comes, we must realize that the Messiah has some "clean-up" work to do on this earth and upon its people. And, we are supposed to work along side of Him, helping Him in this project! We are the "kings" under the "KING of kings!"

The "meteorite shower," starting in the breaking of the sixth seal and continuing to at least the fifth trumpet, is BEFORE the Messiah begins His 1,000-year reign. God is TRYING TO GET PEOPLE'S ATTENTION! He is bringing them back to the REALITY of His Presence - His Shkiynaah! They WILL have to deal with God and with His Representative King, the Messiah of God, Yeeshuwa`! (See Psalm 2:1-12!)

AFTER the Millennium and haSatan is released, he finds his followers and stirs them up to attack the city of Jerusalem and the camp of the holy ones of God, and God pours fire from the sky upon them at that time! (Revelation 20:7-9).

Then, they are brought before Yeeshuwa` as the One who sits upon the Great White Throne for Judgment and Perdition! (Revelation 20:10-15).

Once that is accomplished, and death is defeated forever, THEN He turns over the Kingdom (the EMPIRE) to His Father, And YHWH GOD reigns over the earth and the sky FOREVER! (1 Corinthians 15:28) And, THAT is when the New Jerusalem is finally brought down.

That's all I'm trying to say, and I COMPLETELY BELIEVE that this is the scenario that the Scriptures paint.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

Here, the resurrected/raptured people, "meet the Lord in the air." 

Rev 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power,unto the Lord our God

 

Let's pay particular attention to this event.

Rev 19:7- Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8- And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

When does this happen? When Jesus comes, NOT a thousand yrs later!

Rev 19:11- And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:19- And I saw the beast, and the, kings of the earth, and their armies,  gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his  army.

 

I conclude that, yes, the city is decked out and dazzling, like a bride on her wedding day. But Jesus doesn't marry a city and cover it with fine linen. The city is the place He prepares for the saints. No waiting for a millennium for the honeymoon suite.

 

Sure, but is it everyone from all time? 

For any saints to be resurrected at the time Jesus arrives does not necessitate all saints to be raised. There is precedent for this in Matt 27.

"When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of MANY saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people."

So here not all the saints that could be resurrected were in fact resurrected, only many. We don't know if these were exclusively NT saints, OT saints, or a mix of both.

I'm convinced these saints were contemporary to the time as they appeared to many people; I think easily recognizable, like people they knew personally or at least knew of for identification purposes. But that wouldn't have to be the case, I suppose.

So here only some were raised up from the grave. It not like the rest of the saints not resurrected at this time will never be resurrected in the future. This resurrection from Matt 27 is not the only resurrection and somehow signifies all the other saints not raised up in Matt 27 are lost to infinity. Their time is coming in the future; 2000 years in the future.

So it could be the same in Rev 7 and Rev 20; some are raised, the others wait, it's happened before. They don't lose their inheritance or redemption or the promise of the resurrection, it's just all fulfilled at a different space/time moment.

 

21 hours ago, Uriah said:

I stand by the premise of the parenthetic/digressional passage in Rev 20 being the root cause of many mis-readings.

I don't see how a parenthetic is a reduction though.

It's not like any digression isn't factual. So it's still a fact we have to insert in the deductive process to come to a reasonable and satisfyingly complete conclusion.

So then even as all the references to the gathering speak to the resurrection at the coming of Jesus in general terms, and we the readers of those passages render our conclusion is the same sort of general mindset, concluding every saint from all time is raised from the dead the moment Jesus arrives, Rev 7:11-15 and 20:4-6 are additional facts that must be added to our previous knowledge from the NT epistles.

The information in the whole of the NT came from one source and one source only. 

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

In error you have taught the "Last Enemy Death" is destroyed 1,000 "After" the return if Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 & 51-54 clearly shows when Jesus Returns and the believers are glorified to "Immortality" the last enemy death is swallowed up in victory

How can you claim this takes place 1,000 "After" the return of Jesus Christ, when scripture clearly teaches otherwise? 

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

1 Corinthians 2:9KJV

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, AND THEY SHALL BE HIS PEOPLE, AND GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE WITH THEM, AND BE THEIR GOD. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Shalom, truth7t7 (and anyone else reading along).

Absolutely correct! And, if you believe what you've quoted here, then by this time in prophecy, we're back together in agreement! We ONLY differ about the Millennium and what happens during that time.

If you will notice from Revelation 21:1-5, it's not going to be JUST "Heaven" but a NEW EARTH! Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:3-13 that it will be the SAME planet with a new FACE (SURFACE). And, he tells us that this is what makes the "third heaven." I took the liberties to highlight and capitalize the words from the throne that I feel are very telling about this passage:

It includes THE EARTH! We don't go off to live "forever in Heaven," we will live in them BOTH!

Now, I'm going to make this point one more time to show you the beauty of what you've quoted:

The Greek words used for "heaven" in verses 21:1 and 2 are ...

Verse 1: "ouranon (οὐρανὸν, accusative), ouranos (οὐρανὸς, nominative)," and
Verse 2: "ouranou (οὐρανοῦ, genitive or ablative)."

It's the SAME WORD used by our Lord in Matthew 16:2-3:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ouranou). 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ouranos) is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: ouranou); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Now, I've tried to do as little changes to this text as possible. The ONLY things I've added here are the colorization (red for the words of our Lord, and green for everything else), and the addition of the Greek words behind the English words in parentheses. I left off my usual punctuation that I add.

I was in the process of studying for the book I was writing on the New Jerusalem (STILL a work in progress), and THIS is what did it for me! His usage of the word "ouranos" (and its forms) were translated as "SKY!" What would it do to the text of Revelation 21:1-2 if so translated?

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new SKY and a new earth: for the first SKY and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of [the] SKY, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 

THIS makes perfect sense! And, THIS is how I began to understand that "heaven" can and DOES mean "SKY!"

(This also started my journey "many, many moons ago" into learning the biblical Greek language.)

Edited December 1, 2022 by Retrobyter
to include all readers

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

First, the sky doesn't "vanish." Gases don't just up and "disappear," as if to "go away."  It is MATTER, even if invisible, consisting of molecules and atoms! It's the VISIBLE CLOUDS that roll up like a scroll! Some think this would be reminiscent of a mushroom cloud, but we are talking about a STRAIGHT LINE roll cloud like a scroll, not a mushroom, which suggests a IMPACT line!

The, "matter" is simply moved out of the way so Jesus can be seen.

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Second, they don't necessarily SEE the face (Greek: prosoopon = "face; countenance"); they just SAY that they don't WANT to see His face! And, they could be saying they don't WANT to see His "countenance," which means the "LOOK on His face!"

Well, they would have to know that He would be seen if not in hiding.

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Third, just how would "the entire planet" see Him at the same time? The "entire planet" is ROUND like a ball! There would have to be multiple images of His face all over the planet! And, what if someone is positioned halfway between two images of His face. Do they know what they are looking at?

 Rev 1:7- Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The vapor and debris from the Rev 8:8 impact will be ejected right into space. As we have seen elsewhere in our solar system, (Jupiter) this material can interact with a planet's magnetic field and even self organize in somewhat dipole configuration.

This aurora appearance is actually a plasma. We also use plasma for viewing images in our living rooms! No matter where on the planet you may be, He will be seen

"with poser and great glory" "like lightning" (which is also plasma)

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, in your way of thinking, perhaps. But, I believe that the events of the opening of the seals, are FOLLOWED by the sounding of the trumpets or air-raid sirens, and they are FOLLOWED by the pouring of the bowls of plagues. I find NO evidence that any of these instances are repeats of the same events. Rather, I find enough information between them to suggest that they telescope out from each other! The seventh seal expands into the seven trumpets, and the seventh trumpet expands into the seven bowls of plagues. The wording suggests sequential fulfillment!

Rev 16:12- And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 9:14- Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

 

Rev 16:10- And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 9:1 & 2- And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

 

Rev 16:8 & 9- And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire 

Rev 8:12- And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

Rev 16:4- And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood

Rev 8:10- And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

 

Rev 16:3- And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Rev 8:8- And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 

Rev 16:2- And the first angel went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image

Rev 8:7- The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up

 

                                                SEALS

Rev 8:1- And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour

Rev 8:3- And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:5- And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

                                                 TRUMPETS

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:19- And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

                                                          VIALS

Rev 16:17- And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Rev 16:18- And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Rev 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 16:21- And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The  orbit of the main debris cloud will deteriorate and then come crashing into the Earth's atmosphere around the world. The restored canopy in space around the planet will gather much more charged particles from the solar wind and follow its contour to the poles. The sudden surge of energy to the heart of Earth will shake the entire planet! And will have numerous effects all through the millennium and beyond.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's kind of like when a man has been working on a colossal project for a long time, and it's finally accomplished! The man might say that the project is "his BABY!" He designed it; he worked with it; he fought to fund it; he struggled through its challenges; he rejoiced in the successes he had within the project's stages, and now, it's finally finished! "His BABY" is FINALLY a reality!

Rev 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

People meeting Jesus in the air!

Rev 19:7-Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

No 1,000 years of waiting!

Rev 19:8-And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

How would there be fine linen on a city! Its PEOPLE IN THE CITY!

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I really don't understand all the animosity and bickering about it. I'm just trying to point out the wonderful information that God has shown me about this Huge City! I'm with you, brother, on much of what you say! I SO look forward to the arrival of the New Jerusalem, BUT ...

Absolutely. I hope I don't come off as "bickering". I certainly feel NO animosity whatsoever.

[truth7t7]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

I Agree, How Far Many Will Go In Maintaining A 1,000 Year Kingdom On This Earth, That's Not Seen In Scripture

Jesus Is The Lord