Understanding the Prophetic Word

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

Luke 21:

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

The above verses indicate the rapture will be before the great tribulation.

Hi douggg,

How so?

What is it in those verses that you quoted above that "indicate the rapture will be before the great tribulation"?

[Keras]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Like Revelation Man, how many countless times I have heard that.

What you are describing is an endurance through it, not an escape to avoid it.

 

Exactly what the Prophets say we must do. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The above verses indicate the rapture will be before the great tribulation.

In no way does Luke 21:34-36 say there will be a rapture removal of anyone. Verse 33 says the great test will come upon everyone the whole world over.    You create a Biblical anomaly to think some special people will avoid any trials and testing. 

The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a Satanic deception and your promotion of the idea that it will be 'anytime', simply shows that such a thing cannot be found in the Bible.

Believe it if you must, but to promote and teach an unbiblical fable such as the  rapture, may result in a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

[douggg]

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi douggg,

How so?

What is it in those verses that you quoted above that "indicate the rapture will be before the great tribulation"?

Because Jesus preceded how to escape the day of the snare with the parable of the fig tree generation in Luke 21:29-33 ; which Jesus also respoke about the parabable of the fig tree generation in Matthew 24:32-35 when the disciples overnighted on the Mt. of Olive - after just describing the great tribulation and His Return in Matthew 24:15-31.

Please note:

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

 

Then in Matthew 24, following the parable of the fig tree generation just like in Luke 21:34-36, Jesus gave the same way to escape, by watching, to be living as He said.

 

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

[douggg]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

In no way does Luke 21:34-36 say there will be a rapture removal of anyone. Verse 33 says the great test will come upon everyone the whole world over.    You create a Biblical anomaly to think some special people will avoid any trials and testing. 

Sorry, but you don't know the difference between escape from and endurance through.

I did not say anything about avoiding trials and testing, Christians will have while in this world.  

The verses in Luke 21:34-36 are talking about escaping the time of trouble of the great tribulation to come upon the whole world like a snare.

 

1Thessalonians5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

In 2Thessalonians2:3-4, the transgression of desolation, ToD act by the Antichrist begins the day the Lord, the day of Christ.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

The rapture/resurrection event - anytime between today and the ToD act.

 

 

The false messianic age.   The world saying peace and safety.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @Keras, @Revelation Man, @Shilohsfoal, @tatwo, @Last Daze, @douggg, and @JoeCanada.

As a former believer in the pre-tribulational rapture, I found it helpful to break the beliefs down into the various stages, those which are supported by Scripture, and those which are NOT supported by Scripture.

I. First, is the descending of our Lord from "Heaven" and the coming of the Lord into the air.
II. Then, there is the Resurrection. This is broken down into sub-stages:
II. A. There is the sending out of the aggeloi into all directions to gather the elect.
II. B. There is the re-Creation of the bodies.
II. C. Then, there is the opening of the graves, tombs, etc. and the deliverance from the sea.
II. D. Then, there is the puff of life delivered by the Spirit (the Wind) of God.
III. Then, there is the Rapture itself, the "catching up" (Harpazo). This is also broken down into sub-stages:
III. A. There is the actual catching up of the elect to the skies.
III. B. Then, there is the meeting of the elect with the Lord Yeshua` in the air.
IV. Lastly, there is the conduction of the saints to "Heaven" by our Lord and His aggeloi.

The chief Scripture locations that speak to these events are 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 

These two are supplemented by their reading of Matthew 24 (and POSSIBLY also by Mark 13 and Luke 21), although some recognize that Matthew 24's account says that it is "immediately AFTER the tribulation":

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Simply focus on the points that AREN'T supported by these passages.

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Deuteronomy 30:1-6, referring to the children of Israel, not the church, is the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other of Matthew 24:31.

 

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

_____________________________________________________________________________

 

The gathering of the elect, the whole house of Israel,  from the nations is also in Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth...

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

 

[tatwo]

12 hours ago, douggg said:

In a blink, in the twinkling of an eye, them who are watching for Jesus to come to receive them unto Himself, will be changed, and immediately ascend from the earth, to join together with the resurrected asleep in Christ, to go to heaven with Him - escaping the snare that will come upon all who dwell on the earth.

The snare will be when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God... something totally unexpected.  

Why totally unexpected?   Because there is so much unawareness in the world about the end times bible prophecies.

 

Christ…Head & Body will not be deceived by a god in a temple…They are the temple…the dwelling place of God, the throne of God, the heavenly and earthly kingdom of God…they are to rule with a rod of iron…currently…they are in the final stages of becoming unified in the faith, and in the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ…they are not children anymore…

A mature spiritual adults in the kingdom of God on the earth…the Head & Body of Christ as one…”Christ”…are being prepared for their finest hour. They will be traveling the same road as their Lord and Savior…King Yahshua… on His earthly journey to the cross…putting on the full display of God’s glory and splendor…robed in the power and authority of the throne of God…clothed upon with the righteousness and holiness of the eternal priesthood…and the whole earth will have to deal with that which creation groans for...while the false church has a variety of completely different the expectations.

It was never going to be any other way.

Tatwo…:)

[Keras]

12 hours ago, douggg said:

Sorry, but you don't know the difference between escape from and endurance through.

I did not say anything about avoiding trials and testing, Christians will have while in this world.  

The verses in Luke 21:34-36 are talking about escaping the time of trouble of the great tribulation to come upon the whole world like a snare.

The difference is plainly evident.   'escape' in your interpretation, means the be whisked off to heaven, endurance is what Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:36 and Revelation 14:12, say we must have as we will be here to experience all that must happen in the end times, including the Great Trib. 

12 hours ago, douggg said:

The rapture/resurrection event - anytime between today and the ToD act.

Pretentious nonsense. You teach errors and ear tickling fables. 

[douggg]

42 minutes ago, Keras said:

The difference is plainly evident.   'escape' in your interpretation, means the be whisked off to heaven, endurance is what Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:36 and Revelation 14:12, say we must have as we will be here to experience all that must happen in the end times, including the Great Trib. 

I don't have any disagreement that Matthew 24:13 the concept is to endure to the end - in the context that verse was being given.

Edited September 16, 2022 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, douggg said:

In Deuteronomy 30:1-6, referring to the children of Israel, not the church, is the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other of Matthew 24:31.

 

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

_____________________________________________________________________________

 

The gathering of the elect, the whole house of Israel,  from the nations is also in Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth...

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

 

Shalom, @douggg.

Yes, you're right. There are enough contextual clues to suggest that the Rapture is not seen in Matthew 24:39-41.

Matthew 24:39-41 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

However, I did say "by their reading." Some will use the phraseology of this section of our Lord's prophecy in their description of the Rapture. "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." I really think that it's more from Luke 21 than from Matthew 24. Note the highlighted portion:

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

I've heard songs that employ these words, speaking about the Rapture!