Which is it?

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

Translation has been called a science AND an art. I think the translators in this case were using "temple" so as to be immediately understood by the readers. 

It's not needed to make the passage to make sense. 

 

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

tem-puhl 

noun

1. an edifice or place dedicated to the service or worship of a deity or deities.

2. (usually initial capital letter) any of the three successive houses of worship in Jerusalem in use by the Jews in Biblical times, the first built by Solomon, the second by Zerubbabel, and the third by Herod.

   And the fact that this language, like others, forces implied words into its speech. To not do so it would all sound like broken English. Hence the italics in the KJV.

I only see 'temple' appear in a couple translations. Most translations say 'wing of abominations' which is what appears in the Hebrew text. Again, 'temple' does not need to be inserted. I don't know why it is in a few translations. 

 

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

"abomination" is commonly referring to an "image" or idol.

Sure, but that's only because we know that's the case from several other passages: Dan 11, Dan 12 and the Gospels. Dan 9:27 isn't saying that. We associate the setting up of the image with Dan 9:27 because of what we know of the other instances where it's said, 'the abomination that makes desolate is set up, stands, is placed'.

Dan 9:27 doesn't go that far and yet seem to go even further. I could be wrong here, and I'm not too sure how to resolve it to a certainty however, Dan 9:27 is plural where Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11 and Matt 24:15 are not. 

Also, Dan 9:27 is more in line with behavior, practices, and actions and Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11, and Matt 24:15 are the idol itself, as the three latter references state: stand, place, set up, where Dan 9:27 does not. 

So far I can only get שִׁקּוּצִים֙, shik·ku·tzim, from Dan 9:27, to translate in a Hebrew/English translator. The Hebrew terms in Dan 11:31, הַשִּׁקּ֥וּץ, ha·shik·kutz and Dan 12:11, שִׁקּ֣וּץ, shik·kutz, will not return an equivalent English idea. 

Interestingly, from Dan 9:27 the translator returns this definition; "thorn, splinter, skelf; (talmudic) calligraphical ornament, embellishment on certain Hebrew letters in holy writings, mudslinging, slander; (biblical) idol; detested thing, abomination;  derogatory term for anything forbidden by the Jewish law"

So then, I am still of the mind Dan 9:27 is how this entity gains entry into the Jewish nation, and the temple, or at the very least it's an analog to the nature of this entity, and Dan 11, Dan 12, and Matt 24, are specific to that major sign it's about to get bad; the setting up of the image itself.

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

The word used of "wing" is also one of those words that has "unique" useages: 

"uttermost part", border(s), corners, ends

English (overspreading): sprawl, fringe, 

It does, I agree. It's also metaphoric, or can be. And in Dan 9:27 it's in reference to abominations, not the Temple. So it's not a wing of the Temple, or an ell, or an addition, or some such. 

Jesus says, "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel"

This thing, whatever it turns out to be, must stand in the holy place. Since this takes place at the Temple we have to know what and where the 'holy place' is, and is not. 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/65/b2/7a65b2fa43999c57f890d4f3b7a0ffcf.jpg

In the diagram we can see the layout of the Temple. The holy place is inside the Temple, the area before the holy of holies. There are tons of photos on a Google search.

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

Its hard for me to imagine that (there would have to be a temple first) the priesthood would allow something detestable to be carried in. 

Except for that is exactly what is prophesied to occur.

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

As for lies and flattery, it doesn't match well with Jesus saying it will be seen in the Holy Place.-Standing where it ought not. 

Sure, but as I pointed out, there is a bit of a difference in what Dan 9:27 is relating, and what Dan 11:31 and Dan 12:11 tells us. You may think it's a minor distinction and perhaps even unimportant. I think Dan 9:27 speaks to the plethora of abominations that vault this entity to prominence. And if not that, then it's host of abominations, a whole bag of tricks, horrors and blasphemy, that comes with it. 

And here you also say the A of D will be seen in the Holy Place. The Holy Place is inside the Temple, adjacent to the holy of holies, not in an extension outside the Temple. 

 

 

[Uriah]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

I only see 'temple' appear in a couple translations. Most translations say 'wing of abominations' which is what appears in the Hebrew text. Again, 'temple' does not need to be inserted. I don't know why it is in a few translations.

Right, the NIV also saw fitting to use "Temple" yet left out "wing". There is still plenty of material with one can come to the, "wing of the Temple. Some of the words that demand the most precision are the small/common looking ones. Like, "and for" ... upon, in, on, over, by, for, both, beyond, through, throughout, against, beside, forth, off, from off.  And, also -

upon, on the ground of, according to, on account of, on behalf of, concerning, beside, in addition to, together with, beyond, above, over, by, on to, towards, to, against

upon, on the ground of, on the basis of, on account of, because of, therefore, on behalf of, for the sake of, for, with, in spite of, notwithstanding, concerning, in the matter of, as regards

above, beyond, over (of excess)

above, over (of elevation or pre-eminence)

upon, to, over to, unto, in addition to, together with, with (of addition)

over (of suspension or extension)

by, adjoining, next, at, over, around (of contiguity or proximity)

down upon, upon, on, from, up upon, up to,, towards, over towards, to, against (with verbs of motion)

The word "temple" is attributed to Septuagint. (per NIV)

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

This thing, whatever it turns out to be, must stand in the holy place. Since this takes place at the Temple we have to know what and where the 'holy place' is, and is not.

That is true of course. Yet I cannot disregard the words and meanings I am seeing as well. The reason I posted this topic is because of the two locations that are acknowleged by respected translators. Not to mention the history of the majority being wrong whth some scriptural matters, especially pertaining to prophecy.

 

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Except for that is exactly what is prophesied to occur

Yes, but WHEN? 

zec 6:12, 13- 

And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LO

Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both

 

Years ago I saw the leader of a Temple mount organization. When asked about building the Temple, (seeing they have made all the implements already) he replied by quoting this passage. Then he said when the Messiah comes He will buildit. 

He has made it clear that they detest the idea of building the idea of building a temple for a murders, God hating blasphemer so he can desecrate it and make Christian teachings come to pass. 

He has since passed away and the others don't flinch. And for Jesus to return and build the Temple, for example the one seen in Ezekiel's book, will God have two temples? Destroy (one of) His own temple(s)? 

 Not adding up.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sure, but as I pointed out, there is a bit of a difference in what Dan 9:27 is relating, and what Dan 11:31 and Dan 12:11 tells us. You may think it's a minor distinction and perhaps even unimportant. I think Dan 9:27 speaks to the plethora of abominations that vault this entity to prominence. And if not that, then it's host of abominations, a whole bag of tricks, horrors and blasphemy, that comes with it.

IMO Dan 11:31 & Dan 12:11 pertain to Antiochus. And an "abomination" seems another word for an man made image.

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

And here you also say the A of D will be seen in the Holy Place. The Holy Place is inside the Temple, adjacent to the holy of holies, not in an extension outside the Temple.

The pic I posted explains this.

[douggg]

The abomination of desolation will be "set up" according to Daniel 12:11.

It also has to be viewable in order for the Jews to know to flee to the mountains when it is set up.

The abomination of desolation will be a statue image of the beast king in the standing position, placed out in the open on the temple mount.    

The other abominations to be present on the temple mount during that time are the beast king himself and the false prophet and Satan (concealed within the statue image, unwittingly worshiped, and exposed Ezekiel 28:16-19).

Here is a graphic I made showing the removal of those abominations at Jesus's return.

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by douggg

[DeighAnn]

There is just SO MUCH information to be found in GODS WORDS if one is 'seeking' a deeper truth.  


I can honestly say I abhor the ptrd as TOUCHES and CLOUDS everything...with it's WAYS OF THE WORLD interpretations of what is written so that GODS TRUTH can hardly be found anymore.  Then again the best way to make sure someone can't find truth is to load them up with lies they naturally don't want to let go of, 'flesh' self-preservation and all.   No wonder GODS REST can only be found 'precept on precept......' 


Abominations ALL THROUGH the OLD TEST were caused by NOT BEING FAITHFUL, disobeying God commandments, statutes, ordinances, following after IDOLS...things/gods ANYTHING worshipped other than GOD.  PTR says FEAR DEATH, going to be killings everywhere, leave your brother behind to take care of it...doesn't matter the WAR is about SPIRITUAL THINGS...souls are being LOST already...


"The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate." Psalms 34:22 KJV


'DON'T FEAR THE FIRST DEATH' means
NO NUKE COULD have any effect as far as GODS PLAN GOES neither is it able to make 'DESOLATE' as far as the Bible goes.  That is carnal thinking, period.  God is interested IN OUR SALVATION, NOT THE HEALTH OF THE FIRST BODY.  It's heart and mind, life on earth a 'time' to choose. 


HOW GOD USES HIS WORDS is how WE SHOULD use HIS words, so we don't make up STUFF that has no meaning and just muddies up the water.


"They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills." Lamentations 4:5 KJV


"Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers." Isaiah 1:7 KJV

"He hath turned aside my ways, and pulled me in pieces: he hath made me desolate." Lamentations 3:11 KJV

"And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries." Ezekiel 29:12 KJV

"And he knew their desolate palaces, and he laid waste their cities; and the land was desolate, and the fulness thereof, by the noise of his roaring." Ezekiel 19:7 KJV

"But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate." Zechariah 7:14 KJV

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; When the whole earth rejoiceth, I will make thee desolate." Ezekiel 35:14 KJV

"They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart." Jeremiah 12:11 KJV

"Turn thee unto me, and have mercy upon me; for I am desolate and afflicted." Psalms 25:16 KJV


"Ephraim shall be desolate in the day of rebuke: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be." Hosea 5:9 KJV

OK, not going to do all 132 or so, but I think everyone should at least read them again.


JUST LIKE MEN/places CAN BE DEAD WHILE LIVING, THEY CAN BE DESOLATE with people living. 

DESOLATE ISN'T DEATH AS IT IS PUT FORTH BY SOME 'DOCTRINES'.  





2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

 

7And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.

8And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.

9And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

10Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast,

11The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.





temple??  No.



DANIEL 8
11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?



DANIEL 9
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


DANIEL 11
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.


 

DANIEL 12
9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.



MATTHEW 24 
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)




MARK 13
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

 

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25And there shall be signs in the sun, (going to put on sackcloth) and in the moon (going to become blood), and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.





 

27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[JoeCanada]

18 hours ago, douggg said:

 

Here is a graphic I made showing the removal of those abominations at Jesus's return.

 

 

 

 

Why will the Jews escape through the valley when the Mt of Olives is split???......... as Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives splitting it in half???

Jesus is there..... He has returned..... it's His Second Coming

And so the Jews will flee from.....Him?

???????????????????? 

 

[douggg]

15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Why will the Jews escape through the valley when the Mt of Olives is split???......... as Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives splitting it in half???

Jesus is there..... He has returned..... it's His Second Coming

And so the Jews will flee from.....Him?

???????????????????? 

 

No, Jesus is saving them from destruction.

In the earlier verses of Zechariah 14, half of the city goes into captivity - i.e. taken as hostages by the armies; part of the strategy of the kings of the earth to keep Jesus from executing judgment on themselves.

Those hostages escape captivity by fleeing through the valley - which Jesus then destroys those armies, right after they see Satan exposed, and the beast king and false prophet cast into the lake of fire.

------------------------------------

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

------------------------------------------------------------------

We see this again in Ezekiel 39:17-20.   Which is the reason that we can know for certain that the Gog/Magog event in verses 1-16 is 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9-10) right before then.   

Gog/Magog - then the 7 years - then Armageddon (17-20), and Jesus Himself speaking in verses 21-29 having returned to this earth.

All of my charts, detailing the events of the 7 years, show Gog/Magog taking place right before the 7 years begin.    The prince who shall come of Daniel 9:26, enters the middle east right after Gog/Magog as peace keeper in the region.    The Jews will mistakenly perceive him to be their long awaited messiah.

 

The Ezekiel 39 ancient prophecy of the end times Armageddon feast of Revelation 19:17-18 is in these verses.....

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by douggg

[tatwo]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:49 AM, NConly said:

1 Corin :3

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

 

They cannot see it NConly...they have eyes to see but do not see, they have ears to hear but do not hear, neither do they understand.

Tatwo...:)

Edited July 20, 2023 by tatwo
word

[Shilohsfoal]

On 7/4/2023 at 11:10 PM, JoeCanada said:

 

Why will the Jews escape through the valley when the Mt of Olives is split???......... as Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives splitting it in half???

Jesus is there..... He has returned..... it's His Second Coming

And so the Jews will flee from.....Him?

???????????????????? 

 

The Jews are not fleeing from Jesus.Jesus said they would flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

And they are not fleeing to avalley.They are fleeing to the mountains where the caves are on the day of the Lord.They are hiding.

Revelation 6

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

John described the abomination of desolation in the previous 3 verses 

 

 

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

 

You know what causes the heavens to depart from the earth like a scroll being rolled together ,don't you?Think about it.

Hint,it causes desolation .

Edited July 20, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[WilliamL]

On 7/3/2023 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

IMO Dan 11:31 & Dan 12:11 pertain to Antiochus.

Dan 11:31 does. But "these things" (12:8) refer to events including the resurrection of the dead (12:2-3), so Dan 12:11 must take place during "the time of the end." 12:9

[Diaste]

 

On 7/3/2023 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

 Not to mention the history of the majority being wrong with some scriptural matters, especially pertaining to prophecy.

True. Especially so, imo, when the majority is schooled theologically. 

On 7/3/2023 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

Yes, but WHEN? 

zec 6:12, 13- 

And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD

Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both

Yes. We, believers who confess His name, are that Temple. Not a building of stone, a living Temple.

On 7/3/2023 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

Years ago I saw the leader of a Temple mount organization. When asked about building the Temple, (seeing they have made all the implements already) he replied by quoting this passage. Then he said when the Messiah comes He will build it. 

This is what I have heard for years about the Messiah the Jews are looking for:

The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.

Ever since the destruction of the Holy Temple, in every generation there is an individual, a scion of the House of David, who has the potential to be the Moshiach. If at any moment the Jews are worthy of redemption, this person would be directed from Above to assume the role of the redeemer.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1121893/jewish/Who-Is-Moshiach-the-Jewish-Messiah.htm

On 7/3/2023 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

He has made it clear that they detest the idea of building the idea of building a temple for a murders, God hating blasphemer so he can desecrate it and make Christian teachings come to pass. 

I have never heard the Jewish Messiah is related in any way to christian teachings. 

What I have heard and read is:

The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach."

If the person succeeded in all these endeavors, and then rebuilds the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and facilitates the ingathering of the Jews to the Land of Israel—then we are certain that he is the Moshiach.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1121893/jewish/Who-Is-Moshiach-the-Jewish-Messiah.htm

Religious Jewry is on the lookout for a powerful, religious, human leader as their Messiah.

 

On 7/3/2023 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

He has since passed away and the others don't flinch. And for Jesus to return and build the Temple, for example the one seen in Ezekiel's book, will God have two temples? Destroy (one of) His own temple(s)? 

I know nothing about Jesus coming back and rebuilding a Temple. I understand their is no need for a 'temple' in the coming true Millennial Kingdom. 

The Temple that is coming, built by human hands, out of stone, standing on the Temple Mount, is strictly to satisfy the desire to restore the religious national identity of Judaism and Israel. It's a false Temple, ostensibly built to honor God, just like any other temple, church, basilica, or so called 'house of worship'.  

The next Jewish Temple isn't ordained, sanctioned or, sanctified by the Most High God. 

On 7/3/2023 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

IMO Dan 11:31 & Dan 12:11 pertain to Antiochus. And an "abomination" seems another word for an man made image.

Yes, Dan 11:29-31 is AE IV, the abomination from those passages is a man made image, from all I have read on the subject. 

Dan 12:11 context is the time of the end, well advanced in centuries future from AE IV.