Mike Mclees Posted August 25, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, Michael37 said: OSAS discussions invariably end up in the weeds and get locked, and this thread is nearly there, so here's a thought . . . If apostates were never saved, what are they apostasing from? One has to have been a believer to be apostate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted August 25, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,442 Content Per Day: 8.20 Reputation: 610 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2023 41 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said: There is not enough time to fight this out and that what you want. Your judgments lack accuracy. This is what I asked for (want): I asked for you to provide an unambiguous verse that says what you say. I'm looking for proof. It's called "trust but verify". And you seem rather unwilling to provide any verse. 41 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said: I really don't care what you think of me. Many scriptures have already been given. And they have all been shown to NOT be about what you seem to think they are. That is why I am asking for clear verses, unambiguous in their words. Like what Jesus SAID in John 5:24, that those who believe possess eternal life. And in John 10:28, that those given eternal life (that would be believers) shall never perish. Those verses are unambiguous and teach eternal security. That means that there are NO verses that teach loss of salvation. If there were, then the Bible would be conflicted, which is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted August 25, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,442 Content Per Day: 8.20 Reputation: 610 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2023 30 minutes ago, Michael37 said: OSAS discussions invariably end up in the weeds and get locked, and this thread is nearly there, so here's a thought . . . If apostates were never saved, what are they apostasing from? The very word means to "change what one believes", so an apostate is one who used to believe but changed their belief. I've give you an example: Charles Templeton. He had a world-wide evangelistic ministry and mentored a young Billy Graham. In fact, in 1947 they roomed together while holding crusades all over Europe! However, CT came to the conclusion from some OT Scripture that he couldn't reconcile in his own mind, that the Bible wasn't true. He apostatized from the faith. However, because he HAD believed in Christ, he was given eternal life, and Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Believers will have the opportunity to ask him in heaven why he apostatized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mclees Posted August 25, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: Your judgments lack accuracy. This is what I asked for (want): I asked for you to provide an unambiguous verse that says what you say. I'm looking for proof. It's called "trust but verify". And you seem rather unwilling to provide any verse. And they have all been shown to NOT be about what you seem to think they are. That is why I am asking for clear verses, unambiguous in their words. Like what Jesus SAID in John 5:24, that those who believe possess eternal life. And in John 10:28, that those given eternal life (that would be believers) shall never perish. Those verses are unambiguous and teach eternal security. That means that there are NO verses that teach loss of salvation. If there were, then the Bible would be conflicted, which is impossible. And if they are not precise that means you are right and we are wrong? Edited August 25, 2023 by Mike Mclees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted August 25, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,448 Content Per Day: 6.21 Reputation: 2,297 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said: And if they are not precise that means you are right and we are wrong? I'm waiting for those verses too, that @FreeGrace alluded to . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mclees Posted August 25, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: I'm waiting for those verses too, that @FreeGrace alluded to . . . I wouldn't hold your breath. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted August 25, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.36 Content Count: 3,448 Content Per Day: 6.21 Reputation: 2,297 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 @Mike Mclees @DeighAnn @FreeGrace @Stan Murff I just wanted to go back and see if we - in a simple way - can tie things back to the original topic, which was looking at our salvation from the perspective of life. Jesus uses the example of birth for salvation, saying we must be born again. When a new life happens, it gets born. His life comes into us and makes us new creatures, with our Father's life now in us, and this is what it means to be born again. One of the main attributes of being born again is we become children of God, and this life will now just live. And since this life is from our Father God, one of its main characteristics is, it is eternal in nature. So perhaps we could all just look at this opening topic again from the foundational perspective of this new life coming into us, and what the ramification of His life in us is. (hopefully I've done a good job of making this explanation simpler) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
com7fy8 Posted August 25, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 873 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 520 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) "'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.'" (John 6:44-45) So, it looks like Jesus is saying that people who come to Jesus have "heard and learned from" our Father and then have come to Jesus. So, there is personal communication included, with God Himself, in God's process of bringing someone to Christ. God Himself makes sure people hear and learn all He pleases for someone to get, and He brings the person to Christ. And Jesus guarantees > "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29) Jesus says to take His "yoke" upon someone who comes to Jesus . . . not some church culture's yoke. But this "yoke" has us in personal connection with Jesus Himself, with personal learning . . . "from Me", Jesus says. So we are not getting tangled with ones arguing, possibly with both sides being wrong or both sides having inaccurate claims along with maybe some good points. And I can fool my own self and not know it. So . . . the real Jesus is able to communicate. And God is able to change our character so we are submissive to Him and do not leave Him. Edited August 25, 2023 by com7fy8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted August 26, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,859 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,763 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 26, 2023 On 8/17/2023 at 5:54 PM, Michael37 said: No faith = No access to the Grace of God, as per the illustration. (Rom 5:2) through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Eph 3:12) in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. (Heb 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. I have tried with different reasoning to prove you wrong but it cannot be...because someone has to be included in the redemption that is in Jesus Christ. We are in the redemption of Jesus Christ as long as we believe in him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted August 26, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,442 Content Per Day: 8.20 Reputation: 610 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted August 26, 2023 12 hours ago, Mike Mclees said: FreeGrace said: Your judgments lack accuracy. This is what I asked for (want): I asked for you to provide an unambiguous verse that says what you say. I'm looking for proof. It's called "trust but verify". And you seem rather unwilling to provide any verse. And if they are not precise that means you are right and we are wrong? Look a bit more closely and see that I didn't say "precise" but rather "unambiguous". I HAVE unambiguous verses on eternal security. John 5:24 with 10:28, plus others. But these 2 verses are THE most unambiguous of all of them. It is impossible to misunderstand them, unless someone just wants to do that. Do you have a problem with clarity here? Why emphasize verses that aren't clearly unambiguous and ignore the actual unambiguous verses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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