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Since Cletus mentioned this statement from Scripture in another thread, we owe this thread to him. So here is what the apostle Paul prophesied regarding the time in which we live (2 Timothy 4:3,4): For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. What we see here is: 1. Rejection of sound doctrine in the last days 2. A desire for unsound doctrines based on "their own lusts" 3. A desire for teachers who will satisfy the "itching" of their ears with something new and different, and the more "mystical" the better. 4. A deliberate "turning away" or rejection of the truth 5. A huge appetite for fables (fanciful doctrines). What we are seeing over and over again on various forums, as well as other media such a books, TV, magazines, etc. is (a) a rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity, (b) a rejection of the teaching that Jesus is indeed God, (c) a rejection of salvation by grace through faith, (d) a rejection of the Bible doctrine of Hell, (e) a turning back to the Law of Moses to establish righteousness. What's a Christian to do? Paul says "Hold fast the form of sound words..." (2 Tim 1:13).

Ezra, you have put into words something that has been on my mind a lot lately. More and mre we are seeing the rising up of 'teachers' who have no business teaching and, yes, I'm talking about right here on WCF. The reams of text being uploaded here are not discussion; they constitute an attempt to teach whatever 'gospel' the individuals believe in. I have seen thousands of words uploaded to answer another's question. Seriously, does anyone believe the one responding just typed what is essentially an essay on the fly? There is only ONE gospel and it's our duty as believers to challenge these spiritulizations and departures from Scripture every single time they pop up. Opinions are fine; presenting that opinion as fact is not. In the past teaching has not been permitted on this site and I am stumped as to why we have so much of it now. Whatever the reason, it has to be exposed for what it is and rejected by all who believe in the Word. Even if I agree with what is being put forward, I'm totally against the unskilled teaching the new believers and undedideds that come here. Thanks for putting this out there; it needed to be said.

Where did you come up with this? Satan was cast out of God's Heaven at the time he led a rebellion in Heaven. That was when he was Lucifer. Revelation 12 is describing a future event, when the "prince of the power of the air" and his evil angels are cast out of the atmosphere and stratosphere and CAST DOWN TO EARTH. Ever since the Fall, the evil angels have been influencing world events and evil deeds on earth, but their abode is in the air, since they are spirit beings.

According to the Amplified Bible, "believe" means to cling to , rely on, adhere to. It is not just mental assent or acknowledgement as the demons do. Regular church attendance helps to establish new believers in the basics of Christianity. There they will probably be baptized and through fellowship some of the rough edges will be removed. They help to encourage each other during trials and most importantly we pray for each other. Our weird ideas fall away as the truth is preached in power from the pulpit. Together we are a temple of the Holy Spirit. We are living stones being fit together to make one body, just as our living cells make up our bodies. We learn our place and function in the Body of Christ. We also learn to respect the functions of other members even though they differ from our own. We learn how much we need each other and grow in brotherly love. Older established Christians need to be functioning in a body to disciple new Christians, to teach and to love the new ones who are still struggling. This love for them, just as they are, goes a long way to heal the wounds of the former life so that they can become more like Jesus. Often the older Christians find that they have a lot to learn from the new believers as well. So I don't believe that Christians who are not in church will grow properly or be as useful to God. They may be less fruitful. They may grow cold and not be diligent in their Bible reading, prayer and fellowship with God. It is easier for them to conform to the world when they are not surrounded by godly Christians. Like minded people tend to seek out each other to strengthen each other.

There Are Those Who Are So In Love With This Old Earth They'll Even Peach It Will Never Go Away Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17 Yet The LORD Jesus Has Other And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:21 Plans And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1 You See? Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:14-20 May The LORD Bless The Reading Of HIS Word Amen~! Love, Your Brother Joe

Okay Spock, since you have directly challenged me, I will respond one more time, and though I may not have any grenades, I will give it some effort, but I really am tired of the topic, and I have probably already run out of rifle ammunition, sorry if it was insuffient. So this is the last post for me here, so, I would appreciate it, if you would no longer reply to me directly, and just make you comments on the topic, not in answer to things I have said here. I know you are just a Vulcan, and have superior logic to the rest of us, but your Jedi mind tricks will only work this once. I am taking your stance, that it is not that important, what ever Hell is, we do not want to go there, nor do we have to, so it is a bit of a non issue. I probably lack the gray matter to respond convincingly, it is obvious that your logic is superior, but I will try to muster up some other shades than gray. You asked "why would God" . . . I have mentioned this in other posts on other topics, that my approach to scripture never starts with "why would God". I am not smart enough to understand the mind of God that well, that is why he instructs us. He tells us "what" but not always "why". I do not want to limit what He can and will do, by imposing my limited understanding or knowledge on Him. You spoke of God as though it makes no sense for Him to put people into the lake of fire, when He already had a perfectly good Hell to torture them in (your idea, not mine). Are you sure that the Lake of Fire is some temporary place for permanent destruction? Consider this: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." So, are you trying to say, that day and night, for ever and ever means that the beast and false prophet (both who are people I think) are just there tempoarily? Or are you saying that those who join them, do not share their fate? I am not sure I am following your logic, am I missing something. I apologize, if I lack the gray matter. I am just a simpleton, but I sort of perceived the idea of eternal torment. You had asked about my notion of death as separation. On the day you eat of it, you will die. (Gen 2:17) Either God lied, or death is something other than the body no longer breathing. There is the death in Ecc 12:7, Isa 59:1-2, Rev 21:8, Rev 22:14-5, Rom 6:2, 11, Heb 7:26, Rom 7:4, 1 Cor 7:19 Besides the word death, these all have something in common, they all have to do with separation between things, body and spirit, man and God, believers and sin, Christians and the law, husband and wife. Sometimes one has to open one's eyes to read between the lines. Not every doctrine or idea in the bible, is spelled out for us in exact wording. We get the concept of the trinity, for example, and some other doctrines, from the Bible, without adding to it, but by seeing what is in it. Not everything is even supposed to be clear, but it IS accessible to those to whom it is revealed. Jesus Himself spoke in parable, to hide things from those, for whome it was not given to know. Consider James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. You can, if you look, sort of see almost a definition there, and equation, two times in fact. The body without the spirit, and faith without works, both equal death, both involve separation (Greek word "choris", if you want to look it up sometime. Remember the prodigal son? His father said of his son, that he was dead, now he is alive. We know, and the father knew, that the gone had gone away, yet it is spoken of as death, when it was only separation. I would go one, but that is what I expect you to do. This idea, this equivalence of death and separation, actually permeated the Bible. Similarly the idea that knowledge in the Bible does not only mean intellectual awareness, but intimacy. Adam knew his wife, Josheph knew Mary, Jesus said of some in a parable, :depart from me, I never knew you". Are we to suppose that Jesus was unaware of their existence? Sorry if that was a bit off subject of death and Hell, eternity and all of that, but I wanted to illustrate that sometimes, one needs to look and the spirit of the word, not just the letter of the word. Not everything is laid out for you, as if for a 5 year old, some of it take more insight, than logic my friend. I should probably question Shar at this point also, who said: "The Second Death in Rev 20. The greek word used is "thanatos", which literary means death. Cease to exist. " That looks are first glance, to be very similar to a trick that the Watchtower would use, regarding Greek. Yes thanatos does mean death, thanatos does not mean "cease to exist, not in modern Greek, not in Classical Greek, not in the Koine Greek of the Bible. My wife died in 2014, but she did not cease to exist.

Rev 21 says there will be no more death. Why? Death is gone. It was thrown into the Lake of Fire. Burned up, distinguish with Hades and the unsaved.

Hey! I'm about to record a programme for young people to answer questions from the bible. Got any you'd like to ask? Comment below.

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. They were under the rule of Rome Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. That whole beast in it's entirety which carries the Woman WAS (in rule before), and IS NOT (in rule now) and SHALL ascend out of the bottomless pit. (Future, end times) Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. The woman is sitting on 7 empires - at that time Rome was only the 6th. 1. Egpt, 2. Assyria, 3. Medo-Persia, 4. Babylon, 5. Grecia, 6. ROME Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 7 kings in total. (7 major empires this woman sits on) "five are fallen", 1. Egpt, 2. Assyria, 3. Medo-Persia, 4. Babylon, 5. Grecia, "one is" - 6. ROME WAS RULING (NOT FALLEN YET) "and the other is not yet come" - FUTURE, LAST KING, THE ONE THAT IS THE 7TH AND TURNS INTO THE 8TH. THAT ONE. Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Again, a repeat of verse 10, this one that reigns for a short space will go into perdition. Will go down, not up. This last kingdom will be judged and will be no more. Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. Now God is speaking of the 10 horns that were not in power during Rome's day, but belong to this same beast that carries the woman. The plan for these 10 kings to rule in the last days was already thought out. That plan was in existence. Think...... In Daniel we learn that this end time beast is different from all the other kingdoms before it. Not just different in strength, or more powerful, but a repeat of something that was done in the past, because "IT WAS". It was ruling before. think about it.... What is different? This last end time kingdom takes over the whole earth. Rules over every single nation, every single man, small or great, rich or poor, free or bond. The WHOLE WORLD IS GIVEN INTO HIS HANDS, AND THE WORLD IS ONE AGAIN. Yes again! WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT AN OLD EXISTING KINGDOM HERE like Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, etc We are not looking at a Demon, Devil or evil spirit being suddenly let out of the Abyss who will lead. We have Satan here, Babylon's king don't forget. He's been here a long time. We are looking at ....."a kingdom" that once had power, and who will return. one like BABEL. BABEL WAS ONE. ONE KING, ONE PEOPLE, ONE LAW, ONE GOD. ONE BELIEF SYSTEM. SATAN TRIED TO DO IT BACK THEN AT FIRST, BUT HE WAS STOPPED. GOD WILL LET HIM DO THE SAME IN THE LAST DAYS. God will let Satan bring BABEL back.. SATAN USED NIMROD at the START. He always uses a man. HE WILL USE THE FALSE PROPHET IN THE END. SATAN will have THE WHOLE WORLD "ONE" AGAIN. BABEL will return. One leader, one law, one system under the Mark of the Beast, one people all serving him through his deceit and trickery, that Mark of the Beast, because they did not love the truth, and never bothered to find out. So when the 7th kingdom turns into the 8th, when the False prophet appears, it will be BABEL all over again, but only for a short time.

I hope posting Lutheran views on the rapture is allowed here: [/media ]

Thanks Spock. Good guess. I did spend many years in Corporate America working in law, legal compliance, and all aspects of law. Degreed in that discipline as well, but I am not a practicing attorney. LOL

Another nice rebuttal Shar. Are you a lawyer? If not, you should be. You also have the patience of Job. I too saw enoob's cite of 1 Cor 13 and chuckled to myself knowing that passage had nothing to do with knowledge passing away, but I chose to ignore it because I see Enoob often quotes scripture erroneously to serve his purposes (not God's) . But you, you chose probably the better path- lovingly rebuking and correcting him of the error of his ways. That is the patience of job. (I did this once to Enoob on Rev 20:10 but I can't do this on all his scripture sites. It would take up all my time. In Fact, I've spent enough time correcting him. I need to get back to Revelation and Daniel.) thanks for reminding and modeling for me how to BETTER speak to our brothers, even the frustrating ones, spock

God clearly states in Daniel 12:4, that in the Last Days knowledge will INCREASE. Corinthians 13 you quote is the love passage. This have nothing to do with knowledge passing away. Paul simply states that even if he has all knowledge and does not have love, he has nothing.

Do me a favor Enoob, if you don't want to address the topic at hand and debate, but merely want to talk to me personally, send me a private email. We don't need the entire board to be dragged down in this mud. I hope you agree. No more personal off topic comments please. Email me. I'm here. Oh, and for the record, I couldn't care less what you believe regarding this issue. I'm not even trying to convince people like you, MG, Ezra, etc because I know you have your minds made up and that is fine by me. We are all adults and have been given free will, and you may even be right. My feelings aren't hurt. but you people seem to believe Shar and I are promoting a doctrine of Satan here. well, try to look at it from another viewpoint- maybe some losties don't accept Jesus because they believe God is unloving and too harsh because they perceive him as deriving pleasure in wanting people to burn in torment forever by keeping it going forever. Hypothetical scenario: So, maybe, just maybe, a lostie has been led here to this thread and are reading Shar and my words, and maybe, just maybe, this lostie sees God in a different way now. Not this vindictive vengeful person who derives some sick pleasure in watching people tormented endlessly, but instead is aware that this punishment is limited and purposeful, and no longer sees God as this cruel vindictive God and is now more open to receive the good news of Jesus Christ. Isnt this possible? If you say yes, then I guess it is not a doctrine of Satan because I doubt Satan wants anyone to receive the gospel,of love through Christ our lord. (I'm sure you will say no...) anyhow, go private if not applicable to the topic of hell being eternal, please. Spock

Enoob, you lose a ton of credibility with me when you site partial quotes and leave out the entire context. Let's just look at one example from your above quotes- Rev 20:10 you cited the words "tormented day and night forever and ever" and use that to support your position that the tormenting is FOREVER. Okay, it sounds good, but let's look at the entire verse in context. rev 20:10: 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. oh my, this is quite a different thing! Look who the subject is here: the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Hmm, not all losties of all time.....nope, just the 3 evil amigos. So, why is Enoob using this verse to support his position? He isn't using the entire verse, just a portion, and he is hoping the reader is not smart enough to research the entire context. (This strategy often works for some who are lazy in their study of scripture. ) So, what does this verse show? It shows me that the 3 evil amigos will be tormented FOREVER, BUT NO MORE THAN THEM. if you want to prove all the losties of all time burn in torment forever, please don't cite this verse. In fact, this verse supports my position- God limits those subjects who will burn forever to these three for sure. I believe some fallen angels too pursuant to Matt 25. Lets debate/discuss fairly, please. Spock

The same angelic prince that spawned Rome has also spawned the UN, according to how I see it. I see the 10 leaders as being an incognito group that manipulate the powers of the UN to service their agenda which I believe to be economic in nature.

yes I know. (well now I do, I didn't know before I looked it up )

That's right, everlasting death - they will never be resurrected. The Bible does not teach life in death. The only way one lives after death is by resurrection.

Take the bible literally. Hmmmm. Let's start with this..... "the wages of sin is DEATH!" ok, let me see.....what does death literally mean? Hmmmmm i guess literally, it must mean "eternal tormenting", right peep? How did I do?

I can tell you do not agree with my conclusions here but you are not rolling up your sleeves and debating, bro. You are using what I call "guerilla warfare tactics" just firing a shot here or there. Come on bro, take a scripture either Shar or I have posted supporting our position and tell me what you think God intended that to mean. You wont hurt my feelings if you disagree. Besides, the only way I can feel better about my doctrines is to have them tested and tried. Now put away the rifle and come out with the grenades,. Lol spock ps may I suggest you start with my gray cells post?

The Second Death in Rev 20. The greek word used is "thanatos", which literary means death. Cease to exist. Remember, Jesus say to "fear him who could destroy your body and soul in hell" Destroy = put an end to existence."

Show me in the bible where death is eternal separation from god while not ceasing to exist. Thanks.

Maybe because as was already pointed out, death, in the bible, has more to do with separation, separating the soul from the body, separating us from God. That death is eternal, it does not imply cessation of existence, but eternal separation. Remember, if you do not have Christ, you are already dead. There is a death that does not refer to your body.

Shar just posted this on Ezra's thread about hell, but I think it should be put here too because it is pertinent to this thread as well. Again, very nice well thought out well researched post Shar. Shar said: This thread is a repeat and most what has been discuss is on "Is Hell Eternal" thread. No one doubts there is a Hell. No one doubts it is damnation to the unbeliever. No one doubts when an unbeliever dies he goes to the holding place in Hades to await the final judgment and while there is in torment. The issue that has been brought forward is it eternal suffering or does scripture show that it is for a time? In order for you to believe that an unbeliever will be tormented forever in Hell, you have to believe that at birth we are immortal beings. The scripture shows that we are not. As I stated in I Timothy only God possesses immortality. When God created Adam and Eve they were not immortal. They had not eaten from the tree of life. When they sinned, God banished them from Eden, to insure they did not eat from the tree of life and gain immortality. Believers are promised eternal life and they will receive it upon resurrection. They will be changed and put on the incorruptible. Jesus states in Rev. 2:7 - To him that overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Remember, He took Paradise with Him when He ascended. The biggest testimony that the wages of sin is death, comes from Jesus. When He was crucified on the cross, He took the penalty for sin. What happened to Him? HE DIED. When the dead are standing before the throne of judgment, there is no indication from Scripture that they receive IMMORTAL resurrected bodies. The dead will be judge for their deeds and they will have to stand before Jesus and pay the penalty for their sins. What is that penalty? DEATH. But not just any death. Rev 20:14, ...then death and Hades and the unsaved were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the SECOND DEATH. In Luke 3:17, he will gather the wheat to his barn, but burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. The chaff is burned up. Gone. No longer. Only the fire is unquenchable. spocks words: I could not say this any better so I will give Shar the credit and just due here. It is very LOGICAL!

Good point SS. The first time I heard preaching on this subject that said torment was NOT eternal was from David Reagan of Lamb and Lion ministries. I was taken back when I heard it, but decided to investigate it myself. I started looking at the scriptures with an open mind and was willing to change my beliefs if necessary. after all, I personally don't get any extra pleasure in knowing all losties burn forever and ever. So it's not like I need this doctrine to sleep better at nights. Although I am not 100% sure of my new belief, I feel it is the right one, and it also seems to go along with the character of God as I know him. I think God's mercy outweighs his justice on this one. It seems logical to have an ending point for suffering. I don't believe losties have eternal life....only saved souls do.

Jeff, good research. This is hard evidence that a court of law looks for. Thanks.

And who made you the final authority that decides what is gospel and what isn't? Unless you tell me you are Jesus himself, you are a mere man, and all men, including me are fallible. Don't think so highly of yourself, Sir. Many good people are opposed to your thinking so please don't disparage them with your rhetoric. Debate the topic with scripture please. A concerned Spock.

Good idea, except the world needs Him, and the U.S. does not deserve Him. Hard to imagine him stooping to our politics, when He is already King of the universe. Besides, He is not qualified under U.S. law to be president, not being a natural born citizen of the U.S.

There were normally 2 or 3 witnesses in the Bible. When Jesus was baptized, there was a Voice from heaven, the witness of the Holy Spirit descending like a dove, that of John the Baptist, and even the prophets. When God speaks to us He also may do it in several ways and all agree. You may hear an audible voice or just hear His still small voice in your heart. You will have a confirmation of the Holy Spirit. It takes time to recognize what is of ourselves and what is truly from God. But GOD NEVER contradicts Scripture. It will always be in agreement with the law and the prophets, and in accord with things Jesus did. Mature Christians will agree. When I first started walking in the Spirit, I would hear a message in a sermon that I knew God was speaking directly to my heart. Then I would hear the same thing in a radio sermon from another church, and find the same thing in my daily Bible reading. It would be as if it were shouting at me! God always made sure I heard Him. Some people randomly open their Bibles to the very words they had heard in their hearts in addition to confirmation from Godly christians.. Then opportunity will present itself to obey--a door will be opened. Once when God was telling me to attend another church, doors were closed repeatedly. (Our new pastor was not a believer.) I missed the time when the summer schedual changed. I was unable to learn the new time. My son was begging to go to Sunday School and they had none during the summer. So I took him to another church that was close by for the summer. When fall came I again missed the time change for my home church. Finally I got a bulletin that announced there would be childcare for infants and toddlers during church and Sunday School. So I prayed, Lord, if you want me to go somewhere else, please have there be no childcare on Sunday. When I got there no child care was available. I put my kindergarten age son in his class and took my toddler to the adult class. The teachers for my son complained that he wouldn't hold still, and someone came from another class saying that my toddler (who was being very quiet) was being disruptive by walking up and down the pew. THEY ASKED ME TO LEAVE!. God will make the message very plain. He will repeat it often. It will not contradict Scripture. Godly people will affirm it. He often opens or closes doors. As you mature, you will be more accustomed to recognizing His voice. But there will always be confirmation by 2 or 3 witnesses.

What a waste of time reading this thread was.

You are welcome. Whatever our conclusions may be, we must never think that Hell is something not so bad. It is. Those who go there will be tormented, but I believe Scriptures points to the character of God's love and that after the great white throne judgement, HADES, DEATH and those who are not written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and completely destroyed. That is the true SECOND DEATH. Not just a death of the body, as is the FIRST DEATH, but the complete death of the soul. Remember, Jesus said, ...fear Him who can destroy both your body and soul. The word "DESTROY" means "to put an end to existence." Cannot get around that. Blessings, while you ponder!

Rev 12:13-15 14 And the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, in order that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. NASB I think the wings of the big eagle will bring her to Texas/Oklahoma to safety from the Devil and his hord.

Thank you Last Daze, William and Other one for not opposing my right to have a voice also. I think you will find this very interesting as I intend to go deeper down the rabbit hole. I found this in Micah Micah 5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. When going back over Micah, I see the whole chapter is referring to the last days.

Islam's god Is Greater Than THE LORD Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6 Or So They Pray For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5 Everyday Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Psalms 2:6-8 ~ I Am Blessed Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 Love, Your Brother Joe

No opinions? That would wipe out most of the posts in this whole forum. If Sister had said "this is the word of the Lord to His Church," then you might have a legitimate beef. But she didn't say that, so why single out this post? As far as the substance of the post, like Last Daze I agree with much of it. But don't have time right now to get into it.

While I disagree that's not what this thread's about. Sorry for the detour Spock.

I don't disagree with the gist of your post, Sister. I think the analogy is legit. I see some of the details differently but yes, all of the deception of wickedness will be on display in the last days. The evil trio (dragon, beast, false prophet) work together to bring it about. They will deceive and unite the world in rebellion against God, much like Babel. All of Babylon will be present, including Satan, and all of Babylon will be cast down. It takes spiritual discernment to see it.

This is why we should use the scriptures to check everything out. A new believer should not just accept anything, but read and fill himself up with the Word of God. He should learn to use the sword of the spirit and make note of something that does not harmonise by proving it wrong with scripture. This is how we all grow. .....and this post is not for those just starting out, but intended for mature Christians who already understand Revelations, to think about it and give some scriptures to show if what I said could in no way be possible. I'm willing to hear and look at all rebukes that have substance so we can talk about it and show why it possibly cannot be Babel.

As I See It, The Trouble With Stiffing The Holy Ghost And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Acts 2:17-18 (King James Version) One Will Still Be Held Accountable For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Romans 1:21-23 (English Standard Version)

About women as spiritual leaders in church, I agree with some of the posts. God is God, he can do whatever he wants. I know God will keep his word. My understanding in the New Testament, those specific verses about women who are to remain silent, are for specific events that needed to be dealt with at that time. Now, some leaders take it to be applied throughout all Churches. I guess this argument can be explained as to what is bound here on earth, will be bound in heaven. What is loosed here on earth, will be loosed in heaven. Some preachers preach that wearing opened toe shoes is wrong. Guess what, too that individual who listens to that preacher, if they were to where opened toe shoes, according to their faith, it's wrong. God will use any vessel of his choosing to preach his word. There's even accounts in the Bible where He uses a mule to get his message across. God is no respecter of persons.

It is the fulfilled prophecies of Israel and the miracles of Israel that led me to God in the first place. If you are a person who needs to see miracles in order to believe in God then look no further than Israel and the Jewish people. It's also worth checking out the miracles of the 1967 Six-day war. More proof that Israel is protected by the divine hand of God.

Hi Last daze, Mmmm.... not meaning to be cheeky here, but I can count, 1. Babylon - judged & gone. 2. Medes & Persians - judged & gone. 3. Greece - judged & gone. 4. Rome - judged & gone. 5. The divided kingdom - still to come. Is that helpful, as per my view? Marilyn.

Hi Watching for Jesus, That is amazing. God gave you revelation when the main stream were still locked in the past. well done. Marilyn.

Thanks for sharing, John Haller is a very gifted speaker , I will watch more from him another time.. Praying Jesus come..

Robert Breaker has an interesting theory.....

Very interesting...

When God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He made one man for one woman, and did not include an second male or female. This proves to us that God created only one man for one woman and vice versa, just as He created one destiny for each human being. It is easier said than done because the instigator of sex before marriage is the enemy, and cannot be combated with physical weapons, but with spiritual weapons. This is the key reason Apostle Paul mentioned: If you cannot refrain from premarital sex, then it is better to get married to a person of the opposite sex.

Thank you all for talking about this topic, not many (even pastors) talk about such topics these days which are very essential to lead a Godly life. I'm so thankful to God for protecting me even when i had chances. I would've had definitely failed without HIM. HE protected me. I want to be truthful to my future wife whoever God gives. Thank you all. God bless.

Hello Aussiebanana, I don't know if you are born again and gave your heart to Jesus? If so,you would want to do what He wants you to do.. This is what the Bible says about sex and marriage. hope it will help you to make some good decisions in your life? 1 Corinthians 7:1-40 ESv Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. ... Hebrews 13:4 ESV Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. Exodus 22:16 ESV “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. Ephesians 5:5 ESv For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Genesis 2:24 ESV Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 1 Thessalonians 4:1-18 ESV Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; ... 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. Ephesians 5:1-33 ESV Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. ... Matthew 5:27-28 ESV “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Jude 1:7 ESV Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. John 14:15 ESV “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 1 Timothy 4:12 ESV Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Ephesians 4:22 ESV To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 1 Corinthians 6:18 ESV Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Matthew 15:19 ESV For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. Galatians 5:19 ESV Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, Malachi 2:14-16 ESV But you say, “Why does he not?” Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. Did he not make them one, with a portion of the Spirit in their union? And what was the one God seeking? Godly offspring. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth. “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.” Exodus 22:16-17 ESV “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins. Mark 10:6-9 ESV But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” Colossians 3:1-25 ESV If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Acts 15:20 ESV / But should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 1 Corinthians 6:15 ESV Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!