The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Persuaded]

But Marilyn: the body, as one flesh, is because of the marriage!

-in this case. My impression is you're too hung up on these metaphors. There are several that are used of the church, and to say it is only "the body" is clearly wrong. We are sheep, a priesthood, a family, a body, and yes a bride.

I'm baffled by your interpretation of 2 Cor 11:2. I see none of what you say in that verse, or in its context.

The metaphor of the bride isn't "new doctrine". It pervades Christ's parables and Paul's writings. Again, I absolutely see Israel as a separate entity, but she can't be both the wife Hosea speaks of, and the one Paul speaks of. They are just fundamentally different.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Persuaded,

 

I hear what you are saying as that is what you have been taught. I was never taught that. So we are coming from different backgrounds & beliefs. Concerning the 2 Cor. 11: 2 if you look at verse one you will see that Paul is talking to his disciples. Yes we can read about it but, he will never present us to the Lord.

 

I am fine with metaphors etc when God tells us, but where does it say that believers are AS a bride? it has always been read into the text.

 

Can I say (without meaning to be disrespectful) that would you tell a man `Come to Jesus & be His bride?` I think not.

 

The scripture in Eph. 4 concerns Christ`s love for His Body not for His Bride. It can be difficult when one has seen scriptures in a certain way to really discuss them objectively. To me the issue is probably not so much the term `bride,` but the purpose God has behind those two terms - Body, & Bride. Two different terms for two different purposes. And this is the topic that the Body of Christ is moving into - to learn of its eternal purpose.

[Persuaded]

Lamad,

In the OT, Israel is likened to the adulterous wife of Jehovah, who will be forgiven and returned to her rightful place.

Christ's death is a different transaction- a payment, not a divorce scheme. He shouted "tetalistai" from the cross, "it is finished"- but also means "paid in full".

Don't take my word for- go study the old Jewish wedding practices. You'll see how they are referenced throughout the NT. We become bible scholars, but forget the Jewish culture that frames the discussion.

[Persuaded]

Hi Marilyn,

He loves the body as a bride. Two metaphors there, but here we don't become the body until we are joined as one flesh, at the wedding. I won't restate what I said about each verse in Eph 5, but it's clear that both the wedding event and loving marriage are portrayed, and the whole passage is depicting Christ and the church.

We as a church -not individuals- are the bride. I'm a man, and not the least offended. But in a pearls before swine way, that wouldn't be a witnessing tool to unbelievers. There's people I wouldn't call sheep, either!

I've reread 2 Cor 11 in a bunch of translations to try to get your take on it, but it still looks like it says just what it sounds like:

2 Corinthians 11:2 (NLT) For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband--Christ.

That's the goober-easy translation...

[Marilyn C]

Thanks Persuaded,

 

I see where you are coming from but we obviously see this differently. I`m sure we agree on much more. I see the Christ`s parables as to Israel. Why would the Lord be telling the people of Israel about a group (Body) that He wasn`t going to reveal until He gave the revelation to Paul?

 

Also the `wedding `parable in Matt. 22: 1 - 14 we see that this is on earth, as a man was in the wedding hall but not clothed in wedding clothes. This shows that it is Christ connecting to Israel after the tribulation & sorting out those who were not righteous.

 

The Body of Christ never comes back to earth after it has gone to heaven to its eternal inheritance.

 

 

Christ connects to Israel - Bride Purpose.

Christ connects to the Body - Body Purpose.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Defending the Name]

The church is the body of believers in Christ. Those that hold the testimony of Jesus are witnesses of the blood covenant, therefore they must die, they are not going anywhere.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

If you are a Christian then you are a testator / witness of Jesus, this means that you must sign of from this world with your own blood. This is the bitter cup which is death which Jesus said you must drink of. Saint Paul said all men are destined to die once then to come in the presence of The Lord for judgement.

The Lord doesn't want to see you unless you die first, for death shall bring you before your maker for judgement. You can't cheat death, the rapture is passing from death onto life and unless you sign out of this world with your blood, then you can't be presented before The Lord for judgement for the works done in the body.

Now this judgement all men will face for it is the first judgement to declare you as either his sheep or TARES. This is not to be confused with the final judgement when the seventh trumpet is sounded by Christ who declares time no longer.

Saint Paul testifies of this in:

2 Timothy 4:8

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

That day that Saint Paul was alluding to is when he was about to be killed and he was telling the faithful that he is about to depart from the earthly realm and sign out with his blood, so to be presented before the righteous judge before he can claim his eternal inheritance, which is the crown of righteousness.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Defending the Name,

 

I agree with a lot you have said. It was good to read concerning `departing this earthly realm,` & looking forward to the `crown of righteousness.` Now, crowns will be given out at the Bema seat of Christ. That is where Christians will go when the whole Body of Christ has come to maturity in Him & been taken to their home in glory. 1 Cor. 3: 13 & 4: 5 talk about our motives being exposed as to how we built upon Christ - what work we did under the Holy Spirit or what we did for our own glory. The self works will be burnt up, as it were, but our salvation is based on Christ`s finished work.

 

The `sheep & goats` judgment however, concerns how people treated the Jews in the tribulation. The outcome will be for the `sheep,` life continuing on the earth in the millennium & for the `goats,` they will be cast out.

[Salty]

No. Abraham was counted faithful before the circumcision covenant. He became the "father of them that believe" in Gen 15, he became the "father of the circumcised" in Gen 17. In this sense, he was still a gentile in Gen 15. The covenants God gave to Abraham and his seed, to Isaac, and Jacob, (and David) don't devolve to the church- they are given to whom the Lord gave them, or the Word of God is of no effect.

 

 

You say that while having read and understood Gal.3 and Rom.4 about Abraham? No, I don't think so.

 

That's one of the problems with heeding men's doctrines, because Darby's ideas of Dispensationalism will prevent the believer from seeing how God's Promised Salvation by Faith was always... PRIOR to the giving of the law and the Old Covenant.

 

The token of circumcision God gave to Abraham was a token of that time, and that changed per the New Covenant because it's now circumcision of the heart. But the Promise by Faith given did NOT change, which is why Apostle Paul said those of Faith like Abraham have become "the children of Abraham" (Gal.3). The why that is, is because those in Christ Jesus have also believed by Faith like Abraham did, and it is counted for righteousness.

[Persuaded]

Your understanding of Paul's meaning contradicts God's words to Abraham:

Genesis 17:7 (KJV) 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Abraham is "the father of the faithful", so in that way, only, are we descendants of Abraham. That doesn't make us Jews or Israelites. We don't inherit those promises. God's Word and His promises can't be broken. God did not promise something to Abraham, and then change His mind.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Persuaded

[Salty]

Your understanding of Paul's meaning contradicts God's words to Abraham:

Genesis 17:7 (KJV) 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Abraham is "the father of the faithful", so in that way, only, are we descendants of Abraham. That doesn't make us Jews or Israelites. We don't inherit those promises. God's Word and His promises can't be broken. God did not promise something to Abraham, and then change His mind.

 

I wish I had more time to cover OT history and prophecy with you, but I don't, and it wouldn't be allowed here anyway, for that would be teaching. But obviously, you have missed much from the OT Books. Yet I know quite a few pastors that have also, because of their error of equating most of what's written in the OT Books as past history.

 

You need to look again at what Christ and His inherit, and understand that with both OT and NT Books in mind, for they declare the same things.

 

Apostle Paul was speaking this to Gentile believers on Christ Jesus...

 

Eph.2

¹⁰ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

When did God ordain that? Before the foundation of this world (Eph.1:4).

 

 

¹¹ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

¹² That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

When they were unbelieving Gentiles in the flesh, they were cut off from what? What things does Apostle Paul mention there they were cut off from in the past having no hope, and without God in the world?

 

Did you read that, "commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise" part? Thus Paul established what the unbelieving Gentile is cut off from, the commonwealth of Israel and God's covenants of promise. But that changed when Christ died on the cross and The Gospel was preached to them and they believed like Abraham did...

 

 

¹³ But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

There it is. The believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus "are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Made "nigh" to what? To God's covenants of Promise to Israel? YES! And that means joined with the 'believing' seed of Israel whom Paul mentioned as the remnant according to the election of grace per Romans 11:1-5.

 

The name Israel became God's Birthright name involving the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham. His Birthright is about those "covenants of promise" which are not really about the Old Covenant and law, but about specific blessings that would follow His servants, including with the final inheritance when Jesus returns. Those Promises involve many seed, great national wealth, ruling the gates of one's enemies, the throne of David and royal rule, blessings of lands, plenty of corn and wine, etc.

 

This is why the Christian west began to flourish with those blessings after Christ was rejected in Jerusalem. It is also why when nations and peoples outside the Christian west as a whole accept Jesus Christ as The Saviour, those Promises and thus blessings also start appearing among them. It's something that really makes Christ's enemies angry too, because just the opposite has happened with nations and peoples that have rejected Jesus Christ (except for these last end of days, which was prophesied the power of God's people would wain for the end).