The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Floatingaxe]

Very good Floatingaxe,

 

You did well with that comparison. I would also say that at our gathering unto Him only the Body of Christ will see Him, whereas at the second coming of Christ to the earth every eye will see HIm.

 

Thank you---I very well should have added that!

[ENOCH2010]

Lamad my Bible don't have a left behind book in it. Like I said before, the pre - trib doctrine is a man made doctrine. My Bible don't say anything about different "waves" of the first resurrection, my Bible don't even say anything about going to some mystical place called heaven, my Bible says the first resurrection happens at the second coming. My Bible says the holy city is coming down here after the 1000 year reign. The preconceived glasses are on the pre-trib believers and their left behind series.

[Floatingaxe]

Lamad my Bible don't have a left behind book in it. Like I said before, the pre - trib doctrine is a man made doctrine. My Bible don't say anything about different "waves" of the first resurrection, my Bible don't even say anything about going to some mystical place called heaven, my Bible says the first resurrection happens at the second coming. My Bible says the holy city is coming down here with the Lord, at His second coming. The preconceived glasses are on the pre-trib believers and their left behind series.

 

Well, for one thing, your belief that the holy city, the New Jerusalem comes down at the second coming is a gross misinterpretation of scripture. That glorious event happens AFTER final judgment, after the second coming, and after the Millennial Reign of Christ.

 

Study more!

[ENOCH2010]

True floating ax, I got carried away debunking lamads theory and made a mistake. I went back to edit that

[ARGOSY]

3. At the time of the Rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

10. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

 

Rev 20 says the first resurrection occurs to those who have been martyred by the beast at the end of the tribulation, not earlier.

 

Daniel 12:1-2 describes the resurrection of ALL in the book at the time of the death of the antichrist, which is at the end of the tribulation.

 

So I believe you are incorrect with those two statements.

 

6. The rapture is imminent, whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

 

Verses about the thief in the night and imminence context are normally in clear second coming context, not in the context of an earlier rapture.  Unless you can show me otherwise.

 

Mark 13:34-36, Matthew 24:39-44, 1 Thessalonians 5:2,3

 

Imminence and surprise are associated with the second coming.

[ARGOSY]

Paul made one mistake. He believed in an imminent second coming and that he and the Thessalonians would be there, that was 2000 years ago and he was clearly wrong. Do you think Paul made a second mistake when Paul believed in relief for current persecution only at the second coming, not an earlier rapture? Was Paul doctrinally incorrect when he said the following:

 

 

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Paul was not promising them a rapture to end their troubles, Paul was promising a second coming, a day of wrath.

[Floatingaxe]

 

3. At the time of the Rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

10. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

 

Rev 20 says the first resurrection occurs to those who have been martyred by the beast at the end of the tribulation, not earlier.

 

Daniel 12:1-2 describes the resurrection of ALL in the book at the time of the death of the antichrist, which is at the end of the tribulation.

 

So I believe you are incorrect with those two statements.

 

6. The rapture is imminent, whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

 

Verses about the thief in the night and imminence context are normally in clear second coming context, not in the context of an earlier rapture.  Unless you can show me otherwise.

 

Mark 13:34-36, Matthew 24:39-44, 1 Thessalonians 5:2,3

 

Imminence and surprise are associated with the second coming.

 

 

I agree there is what looks like a discrepancy. However, I can learn from the passages you have provided that there will be further resurrections of certain people, and I do believe that is for the sheep and goats judgment that Jesus Christ will perform at the onset of the Millennial Reign.

[Salty]

 

Paul made one mistake. He believed in an imminent second coming and that he and the Thessalonians would be there, that was 2000 years ago and he was clearly wrong. Do you think Paul made a second mistake when Paul believed in relief for current persecution only at the second coming, not an earlier rapture? Was Paul doctrinally incorrect when he said the following:

 

 

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Paul was not promising them a rapture to end their troubles, Paul was promising a second coming, a day of wrath.

 

 

I don't believe Paul made a mistake by preaching about Christ's second coming, and I don't see that as man's doctrine of Imminence. The reason is because Paul made it clear the order and events leading up to Christ's return and our gathering, and it all accords with what God gave through His OT prophets.

 

Man's doctrine of Imminence proclaims that Jesus can come at 'any time'. That's why it's nick-named 'the any moment' doctrine. Those men behind that doctrine don't teach what Paul taught on the matter. They twist Paul's teaching, for Paul made it plain that Christ's coming is not to be "as a thief in the night" to His Church (1 Thess.5).

 

The day will come when those who listened to those doctrines of men will realize what those teachers of such doctrines were up to and who they really serve (not Christ Jesus). They serve as co-conspirators in the plan to trick as many believers as possible into disregarding God's Word about the true timing of Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him. Cyrus Scofield and his club of New York friends loved how they duped so many unaware brethren.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

3. At the time of the Rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

10. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

 

Rev 20 says the first resurrection occurs to those who have been martyred by the beast at the end of the tribulation, not earlier.

 

Daniel 12:1-2 describes the resurrection of ALL in the book at the time of the death of the antichrist, which is at the end of the tribulation.

 

So I believe you are incorrect with those two statements.

 

6. The rapture is imminent, whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

 

Verses about the thief in the night and imminence context are normally in clear second coming context, not in the context of an earlier rapture.  Unless you can show me otherwise.

 

Mark 13:34-36, Matthew 24:39-44, 1 Thessalonians 5:2,3

 

Imminence and surprise are associated with the second coming.

 

 

I agree there is what looks like a discrepancy. However, I can learn from the passages you have provided that there will be further resurrections of certain people, and I do believe that is for the sheep and goats judgment that Jesus Christ will perform at the onset of the Millennial Reign.

 

 

Thanks, for looking into this. Yes we can never stop learning.

 

Just for you to meditate on, scriptures show that at the second coming there will certainly be a resurrection known as the first resurrection, the angels at that time will gather the elect (elect means saints/Christians) as Jesus is seen in the clouds (Matthew 24/Mark 13). This will occur at a loud trumpet call (Matthew 24). This is second coming is described as a thief in the night.

 

In addition to these post-trib facts, you believe there will be an earlier pre-trib resurrection before the first resurrection, which is also a gathering of the saints, and a  last trumpet before the trumpet call, an earlier thief in the night before the second coming thief in the night. Some pre-tribs also believe in a silent rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4 as a loud shout and the voice of the archangel. 

 

So you appear to believe in two closely duplicated events, even when 2 Thess 1 says we get our relief only at the second coming, and 2 Thess 2 says we are only gathered after the antichrist is revealed.  With all this counting against the pre-trib belief, on what grounds would you place the rapture verses of 1 Thess 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 into an earlier rapture? Even the bible chooses to associate these two rapture events with the coming of Christ, which is a phrase pre-tribs do not like to associate with the rapture even though the bible makes no such distinction.

[ARGOSY]

The church will be raptured at the second coming:

 

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

 

Its strange why pre-tribs do not like to call the rapture a "coming" when the bible is quite fine with describing every rapture description as occurring at the coming of the Lord/Christ. Pre-tribs should admit that they believe the rapture is at the second coming (its described as a coming by the bible) and then introduce a third coming for their day of the Lord event.