The Day of the Lord, will the church be raptured?

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

Paul wrote that letter to all the saints in Collosse, not just Jewish saints.

 

 

The Jews were the elect of God before the Church, and when the Church is removed, the Jew will revert to the elect again, during the Tribulation age, where God has a special plan for them.

 

 

Sorry , I edited my post after reading your post more clearly.  Why do pre-tribs choose to split the resurrection into two resurrections, on what biblical basis do you base your theory that the elect are gathered twice? Firstly the church elect, then the Jewish elect.

 

 

The bible teaches two different resurrections at two different points for two different people groups. The Church, including Jewish believers, and then later, the wicked dead from the beginning of time.

[tigger398]

rapture and second coming are two diffrent events. second coming is not rapture.

[Floatingaxe]

rapture and second coming are two diffrent events. second coming is not rapture.

 

[ARGOSY]

 

The bible teaches two different resurrections at two different points for two different people groups. The Church, including Jewish believers, and then later, the wicked dead from the beginning of time.

 

 

This is true, but then why do pre-tribs believe that there is another pre-trib resurrection  before the first resurrection?   Pre-tribs always claim 1 Corinthians 15 is the pre-trib rapture, and yet this chapter is all about us receiving our resurrection bodies.

[Salty]

 

"when God's Word does not speak of but one time of Christ's return, which is on 'the day of the Lord'. "

 

Why would you say this when it is simply NOT TRUE? Go back and read 1 Thes. 5 again and again and again until you get it. There Paul tells us that the rapture is what TRIGGERS the Day of the Lord. And Paul is very clear that that is a COMING of the Lord. The truth is, the Bible certainly speaks of two more returns of Christ. One will be IN the Day of the Lord, but the first will be the trigger for the Day.

 

Did you ever wonder what Paul's "sudden destruction" is, that will catch ALL on the earth as a snare? This sudden destruction cannot be separated from the dead in Christ rising and those alive being caught up. It is the dead in Christ rising that causes a mighty, worldwide earthquake, and this earthquake IS Paul's sudden destruction. So while the righteous get "salvation" and get raptured, the sinners get the sudden destruction. Paul tells us this sudden destruction is the start of the Day of the Lord, and God's wrath. He goes on to say that God did not set any appointment for the righteous with His wrath. Notice in Mat. 27 "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened gives us a strong hint that when the long dead are resurrected, it causes an earthquake. If you will notice, when the two witnesses are raised, there was a great earthquake then too. When the dead in Christ are resurrected, it will cause a worldwide earthquake.

 

This sudden destruction earthquake is found at the 6th seal in Revelation. It is no accident that John then saw the raptured church in heaven in Rev. 7, just after the 6th seal.

 

In 2 Thes. 2, they THOUGHT they were IN the day of the Lord, when, in fact, they were not. They were very upset, because Paul had taught them of a PRETRIB rapture, and they thought they had MISSED it. Paul's method of correcting their thinking was to show them how to know for SURE when someone would be IN the Day of the Lord. If one sees the man of sin revealed and enter the temple and declare he is god, that is PROOF POSITIVE that the day of the Lord had started and one is IN it. However, there is someone restraining this revealing, and first, before he can be revealed, that one restraining must be taken out of the way. If you will notice, in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED (in Paul's argument) so in 3a the one restraining MUST BE taken out of the way. In fact the first translators into English translated apostasia as the departing. It is the best translation. Paul is not telling us the gathering is IN the day of the Lord at all; he is telling us that the departing must come FIRST, and then the day of the Lord will come. He did not change his mind from his first letter.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Heb.9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

What you're... saying... is simply not true. The above verse says a "second time" He will appear to those who look for Him unto Salvation, so that definitely means His Church. Notice that is NOT a third time, nor any multiple rapture idea. There was His 1st coming, and then there will be His 2nd coming, and that's it. He is not coming and then going back to Heaven and then back to earth again like some bouncing ball.

 

Although 1 Thess.5 does not give the detail like 1 Thess.4 does, Paul is continuing the subject from 1 Thess.4 about the saints still on earth on the "day of the Lord", which is when Jesus returns to gather His Church.

 

 

Rev. 16:15

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

1 Thess.5:1

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 

2 Pet.3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

Since the pre-trib rapture theory loves to twist that "as a thief in the night" metaphor our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave, there's the Biblical evidence of what timing God's Word associates it with, i.e., "the day of the Lord".

 

So your disagreement is NOT... with me, your disagreement is against the Scriptures on the timing of the "day of the Lord".

[ARGOSY]

rapture and second coming are two diffrent events. second coming is not rapture.

 

Pre-tribs just don't like to call the rapture a coming. But the bible itself always calls our gathering a "coming".   Jesus walked earth, that was the first coming. Then we get raptured at the "coming of Christ".  THEN pre-tribs believe in a further coming , a third coming.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[ARGOSY]

 

There is a vast difference in a "macro" scripture as in an Old Testament prophecy and a micro scripture in the New Testament. It would be compared to looking at a distant mountain range through a telescope. One could only see the peaks of the mountains and know nothing of the valleys inbetween. When we have a microscope view of the end as in Revelation, we must form our doctrine there and not from a telescope view from Daniel. John tells us in very plain language that there will be a 1000 years period of time between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the sinner. Since this seems to contradict your take on Daniel, then perhaps we need to rethink what Daniel meant. Could that scripture be taken differently? John seems to contradict Jesus too, where Jesus said that an hour was coming when ALL in the graves would rise. So how do we reconcile that from Revelation? It is very simple: there WILL BE an hour when the just rise, and there will be an hour when the unjust rise - but it will be a DIFFERENT hour.  Also note, I am not the one "staggering" the first resurrection. Common sense and the word of God tells us that Jesus rose LONG before Rev. 20. It also shows us that the two witnesses will rise before Rev. 20. So it is the very word of God that "staggers" the resurrection. Revelation 20 tells us that there will be only TWO resurrections; one for the just and one for the unjust. It really does not say that there would be no resurrections in chapter 19, 18, 17, 16, etc. People read that into the text when it is simply not there.

 

 

If we read 1 Thes. 4 & 5 carefully, Paul tells us there is a SUDDENLY coming. That sudden event will be the dead in Christ rising. This sudden event will happen when no one expects it, as a thief in the night. It will come when people are living in peace and safety, quite like today.  When this sudden event happens and the dead in Christ rise, it will cause a mighty, worldwide earthquake. That earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction" that will catch ALL on the earth as a snare. Paul then tells us this sudden destruction will be the beginning of God's wrath. The earthquake will be the same earthquake as the 6th seal in Revelation. This sudden event of Paul's rapture will come as a surprise and SHOCK to the world. Where is there any place that tells us exactly when Jesus will come for Paul's rapture? Paul tells us "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." this comes just three verses after Paul's classic rapture verse. It is the sudden destruction earthquake that begins the day of the Lord and that earthquake, caused by the dead in Christ rising, is what will hit suddenly, like a thief in the night. NO ONE will be expecting this. NO ONE will know when.

 

Yes, I agree, when Jesus comes on His white horse, there is the third time He comes, and again it will be as a thief in the night and no one will know when. They will know when the 70th week ends, because there will be the world's worst earthquake then. But Jesus will remain in heaven for the marriage and marriage supper before He leaves heaven WITH His Bride.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Hey LAMAD, 

 

Thanks , you put forward a pretty decent argument regarding the various descriptions of the resurrection.  Although I respect your view, I believe the wording regarding the resurrection of the righteous is more obviously describing one particular resurrection , and I include the resurrection of the two witnesses in the timing of that one resurrection. I'm sure its obvious to you too that Jesus' own resurrection is not included in the resurrection of Daniel 12:1-2 and Rev 20. I do not believe the resurrection of the righteous is staggered.

 

You refer to 1 Thess 4 and 5 as referring to this "sudden coming".  It is here that you must tread very lightly because as a post-tribber I believe chapter 4 and chapter 5 are associated and are describing the rapture/resurrection on the day of the Lord.  If you as a pre-tribber associate chapter 4 and 5 as the same day, this completely ruins your entire theology. Because chapter 4 describes the rapture and chapter 5 describes the "thief in the night" which occurs on a day of sudden destruction.  So the very verses you use to prove the "sudden" thief in the night are actually referring to the day of the Lord, and you still need to show me this other "sudden" rapture that you claim occurs earlier.  Kindly post any verse that refers to a sudden rapture before the day of the Lord.

 

And regarding your "third coming"  you are starting to sound like a post-tribber, trying to justify why the second coming can be predicted and yet also is a sudden unexpected day. Welcome to the club! Yes the gathering of the elect is both a thief in the night, and yet also follows a predictable 3.5 year tribulation period.

[ARGOSY]

If we study the Old Testament, it seems several of the Hebrew feasts included trumpet blasts. Just in the feast of Trumpets, there must be a hundred trumpet sounds, and at different times, different trumpet sounds. From what I read, to END the feast of trumpets they blew one long trumpet blast they called "the last trump." So at that feast there is a series of trumpet blasts.

 

 

As I study Paul's writings, I am convinced of two things: first, He understood everything He wrote about. Second, he was certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit as He wrote. He never got to read John's book of Revelation. Therefore he knew NOTHING of the 7 trumpets in Revelation. It is extremely doubtful that God revealed what was in Revelation to Paul also. I really don't think Paul knew anything of a future series of 7 trumpets that would come in the future Day of the Lord. What Paul knew was that the rapture would come "at the last trump." Did He understand what that phrase meant? Did He associate it with the feast of trumpets or some other feast? We will just have to ask him when we get there!

 

I think you are mistaken: there is no verse that says " we will only be gathered (raptured) after the revealing." Please show us the verse you get this from? When I read that passage, I see that Paul sets the theme of the passage as about the rapture or gathering. Yet, the way most people read it, there is no "gathering" or rapture unless they think "rapture" when they see "the Day of the Lord." I don't see rapture when I see the day of the Lord. I see the rapture as the trigger for the day of the Lord. The day is His wrath, and Paul explains well that his rapture takes us up into the air before His wrath hits in the sudden destruction that will catch all who are left behind as a snare.

 

Make no mistake, if words mean anything at all (verses 6-8) , the restrainer is "taken out of the way" in verse 3a, simply because in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED.  I don't see a "falling away" as a restrainer being "taken out of the way." When I study the compound word "apostasia," is see in "apo"  a part of a whole removed from the whole, where they are standing. Next, I see in verse six where Paul wrote "NOW YOU KNOW...." I puzzled over that for a long time, wondering WHY Paul would write those three words. I am convinced he wrote them because he had just told them who the restrainer was, but he did it in a way not at first seen.

 

Posttrib believers certainly jump on the Mat. 24 gathering as Paul's rapture when there is not one word of evidence that the rapture is what is being shown. On the contrary, it does not seem by its very discription to be Paul's rapture. When we are transformed into resurrection bodies, we will fly as the angels fly, so no need for angels gathering us. Neither does Paul give any hint of angels gathering us. Next, Paul is clear that HIS gathering comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, which we find in Revelation happens at the 6th seal, LONG before the end of the 70th week. I don't think it is an assumption at all to say the Mat. 24 gathering is NOT Paul's rapture. It may be an assumption that it is referring to the gathering of the Jews. However, there are scriptures where God tells us he will gather the Hebrews back to their land.

 

Daniel's words about the resurrection was certainly pointed only to Old Testament saints, for at that time that is all there was.  I don't think it is wise to form doctrine from an Old Testament verse when we have a hundred times more verses on the same subject in the New Testament. We can certainly fill in missing pieces from the Old Testament, but John writes SO MUCH about the end, we must form our doctrine there. Daniel certainly knew the day would come when HE would be resurrected and "stand in his lot."

 

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Daniel takes two verses to cover what John takes several chapters to cover. "At that time" is speaking of the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. In Revelation those days will begin at the midpoint and go some unknown days into the last 42 months of the Beast's authority. So in Revelation, the days of GT will begin at the end of chapter 14 or the beginning of chapter 15. John shows us there will be a resurrection at the end of the 70th week becuase those beheaded are seen in heaven ruling with Jesus. However, John really never pinpoints an exact time for this resurrection. People just assume it happens in chapter 20. That is not a wise assumption.  "Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." there is really NO TIMING given for this statement. This is what I call a "macro" verse. It tells us of a resurrection, but gives NO DETAILS. For details we must get into the New Testament.

 

I am convinced that PAUL was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture of the church. Before he wrote, no one knew anything more than what was in the Old Testament. Therefore, if we wish to know about his rapture, we are going to have to study 1 Thes. 4 & 5 and 1 Cor. 15. Is there any timing to be found in those scriptures? Certainly there is, if we study diligently.

 

We seem to disagree much on exactly what the "day of the Lord" is. I read in the Old Covenant that it is a DARK day, while Jesus coming will be BRIGHT. I understand the Day of the Lord to be an extended period of time, starting at the 6th seal signs for said Day, and continuing on through the 70th week and then on to the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. If you see it as a 24 hour day, I thiink you are mistaken. I read that the Day of the Lord is when God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world. In Joel, writing of the Day, said the cattle were perplexed because they had no pasture, for the fire had devoured the grass of the pasture. I see the first trumpet judgment as the fulfillment of that. So I see John in perfect agreement with Joel that the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal. I read in Isaiah 2, writing of the Day of the Lord,  of a great earthquake and it seems John almost copied Isaiah word for word at the 6th seal about men crying for the rocks to cover them for fear of the Day. Again John seems to be in perfect accord that the Day of the Lord comes EARLY in the book of Revelation. Therefore I see the day of the Lord starting at the 6th seal and continuing on through the entire 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Hi LAMAD,

 

Thanks I really appreciate your attempt at defending your position from a scriptural basis and without the normal emotional nonsense and/or egotistical approach that sometimes goes along with these debates.  You put forward a reasonable argument regarding Pauls reference to the "last trumpet" however I believe its the less obvious approach. My view on bible prophecy is that anyone can see anything in these mainly symbolic prophecies. The only advantage one position has over another is that the bible was written , not for the intellectual, but for the average person. And so in each case its best just to go with what is the most obvious meaning (taking the original languages into account of course). I believe your long explanation regarding why Paul's last trumpet is different to Revelation's last trumpet is justifying the less obvious position and so I recommend that we just agree to disagree on that issue.

 

The following verse indicates that our gathering occurs only after the antichrist is revealed at the temple, which would contradict your view that our gathering occurs before the antichrist is revealed:

2 Thessalonians 2  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed

 

Regarding your reference to 1 Cor 15 and  1 Thess 4 and 5, please indicate to me why you would place them before Jesus comes on a day of destruction. 1 Thess 5 clearly associates the thief in the night with a day of destruction, and the other two chapters associate the rapture with the coming of Christ. You still need to explain to me why you think those descriptions of the rapture occur earlier? Why on earth would you be tempted to place them BEFORE the obvious "thief in the night" gathering of the elect at the coming of Christ in Matthew 24???? What biblical motivation have you got to do such a thing when there is such a blatant OVERLAP of the events at the coming of Christ in those rapture verses and the coming of Christ in Matthew 24. This is the entire crux of the pre-trib rapture debate, what is your scriptural reason for splitting an event that is so obviously the same??   I need an answer here. Your attempt to describe the gathering of Matthew 24 as somehow different just because the angels are doing the gathering I feel is far from conclusive, as if we can all fly like Superman the moment we leave the graves. I see no contradiction when the angels collect the resurrected. This is after all where the pre-tribbers get their "left behind" idea from, its the Matthew 24 description of some being left behind. So some naive pre-tribbers already associate the left behind description and the thief in the night description of Matthew 24 with the rapture, as do all post-tribbers. So your position that the desciptions are entirely different fails to convince in the evidence of the many who clearly do see the similarities. Nevertheless, there is nothing in the text of 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 which even hints at an earlier rapture.

 

I here you on the phrase the "day of the Lord". It may mean different things to different people. I was only using that phrase to prevent a semantic problem when I am referring to the second coming which is your third coming, instead this created a further semantic problem. Maybe we should call your second coming the  "rapture coming" and your third coming the "final coming". Obviously  I believe they are the same coming.

[iamlamad]

iamlamad, on 15 Jul 2014 - 8:30 PM, said:

God will certainly NOT gather all trumpets after the "last" trump at the rapture, so there can never, ever, be another trumpet blast. That is not His intent in this verse. His intent is Paul's "last trump" is the last IN A SERIES, just as the 7th in Revelation is the last of a series. These are DIFFERENT series and not in any way related.

 

Salty wrote:

 

The "last trump" Paul was speaking of is... the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev.11, because Rev.11 reveals all the kingdoms of this world becoming those of The Father and The Son with the 7th trumpet, and per Rev.10 that when the 7th angel begins to sound all prophecy for this world that God gave His prophets will be accomplished. Some men have tried to separate the two, but it cannot be done because the event timing is the same for both.

 

Salty, you know as well as all the rest of us on this forum that there is not one verse of scripture to prove this false theory.  (If I am wrong, please post the verse that links these two trumpets.)

 

Next, you are ABSOLUTELY wrong saying "all prophecy for this world...will be accomplished." This is a classic case of a man made theory created out of thin air.  What it DOES say is, "the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." To understand WHICH mystery (the bible has many mysteries) we must take the context of the 7th trumpet and much of the Old Testament.

 

What is the truth? Paul's "last trump" timing of his rapture comes as the trigger for the great earthquake and signs in the sun and moon as seen at the 6th seal. Before the scroll can be unrolled to reveal the trumpets, the 7th seal must be broken. Therefore the 6th seal comes at least 3 1/2 years before the 7th trumpet sounds. therefore it is simply impossible that they are speaking of the same trumpet. Next, God's wrath will have been on the earth since the 6th seal, while Paul wrote that the Bride would get raptured and so NO APPOINTMENT with His wrath.

 

First, HOW did Satan get the kingdoms of this world? Were they GIVEN to him?

We see that he LOSES them at the 7th trumpet. WHY at that time?

What was the scroll with the 7 seals? Does it relate to the 7th trumpet?

 

The truth is, the scroll in the right hand of the Father was and is the LEASE DOCUMENT to planet earth. Breaking the seals was the KEY to ending Satan's reign as god of this world. He got the kingdoms of the world from ADAM because God gave Adam dominion over this world, and when Adam sinned, Satan USURPED Adam's 6000 year lease.

 

When the 6000 years of man's rule is up, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven. Adam's lease will have run out and therfore suddenly Satan has NOTHING to hold onto. He has no more legal right to ANYTHING. So the 7th trumpet is also Michael's signal to go after Satan and taken hiim OUT of the heavenly realms.

 

When the 7th trumpet sounds, Satan looses, and the kingdoms of the world are TRANSFERRED to Jesus Christ. However, Jesus will not take physical possession for another 3 1/2 years, for God has given the Beast 42 months of authority staring near the 7th trumpet.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Argosy wrote:

 

I here you on the phrase the "day of the Lord". It may mean different things to different people. I was only using that phrase to prevent a semantic problem when I am referring to the second coming which is your third coming, instead this created a further semantic problem. Maybe we should call your second coming the  "rapture coming" and your third coming the "final coming". Obviously  I believe they are the same coming.

 

It seems you immediately associate the "Day of the Lord" with the "second coming." Is this true? I have studied all the Old Testament scriptures on "the day of the Lord" for years.  Here are some samples:

 

Isaiah 13:6

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

 

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it

 

Jeremiah 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries:...

 

Joel 1:15

Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

 

Joel 2:11

And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

 

Amos 5:18

Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

 

Amos 5:20

Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

 

Zephaniah 1:7

Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

 

Zechariah 14:1

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

 

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

In all these, there is only one TINY hint that it might be associated with the Coming of the Lord. Joel 2:11 says "the Lord shall utter his voice before his army" That could be when He comes, but it is very possible it could be God is speaking to His army while He is still in heaven.

 

The only other association I can find with the Day of the Lord and a coming of the Lord in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. There I see a coming, and I see the Day of the Lord mentioned just 3 verses after the rapture verse. I see this as Paul putting these two events as back to back events....that cannot be divided. I see it as the rapture event being the trigger for the Day of the Lord, NOT the Day of the Lord and the rapture being synonomous.

 

In 2 Thes 2 (GNV)

 

¹ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

 

Paul is giving us his theme for this passage: it will certainly be about the coming and the gathering. Whatever we believe is being said here MUST agree with what Paul said in his first letter. For sure we see there can be no gathering without a coming.

 

² That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand. [Many translations use Day of the Lord. Since Christ is Lord, I don't see a big difference.]

 

Notice that they were unsettled and disturbed because they had heard from some source that the Day of the Lord had come and they were already IN the Day. Now, ask yourself a question: did they think the Day was synomous with the Coming and gathering? If they thought that, they would be expecting to be caught up any moment, and there would be no reason for them to be upset. If they had been taught that all they had to do was hold on, endure, and overcome for 7 years and then they would be caught up, again, I cannot see any reason for them to be unsettled.

 

On the other hand, if Paul had taught them that the coming and gathering would be the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord and would come FIRST, [exactly what he teaches in 1 Thes 4 & 5) and they though they were IN the day of the Lord, I can easily see why they were upset. They thought they had MISSED Paul's rapture and were left behind.  Perhaps at first they may have wondered if Paul had been raptured.  So how will Paul answer? He will explain HOW to tell when the Day of the Lord has really come.

 

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

⁴ Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doth sit as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

Note: Paul does NOT want anyone to be deceived on this! Notice what must come first.....first before the Day of the Lord. It is a departing that must come first. Is it a "falling away?" If so, Paul did not specify what was being fallen away from.  the big point to notice here is that in 3b the man of sin is disclosed or revealed. He will enter the temple and declare he is god.

 

⁵ Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

Not only did Paul teach these things before in person, but he sent letter #1 before this letter.

 

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.

 

HOW can we know, Paul, unless you TOLD us? In fact, I think he DID - in verse 3. But the second point here is that he WILL BE revealed at the proper time.

 

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming,

 

So there is someone (a HE) who now is restraining or preventing the revealing from coming too soon. Notice that the one restraining will be "taken out of the way." In other words, and OUTSIDE FORCE will remove the one restraining. Once this restraining force has departed or been taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed. As verse six put it, "he might be revealed in his time."

 

Summarize: one is restraining, withholding, preventing the man of sin from being revealed until the proper time. when that time comes, and OUTSIDE FORCE will take away the one restraining: "taken out of the way."  This means "he" is IN THE WAY now. Look at verse 3b in some other translations.

 

NIV: the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

NLT:  the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.

ESV:  the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

NASB:  the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

KJV:  that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

KCSB:  the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

DBT:  the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

 

Most of the rest are either "Is revealed" or "be revealed"

 

My question then: in 3b is the man revealed or is he not revealed (in Paul's argument) ?

I believe he IS, simply because Paul tells us what he does once he is revealed.

 

However, we know from verses 6-8 that he cannot possibly get revealed until the one restraining is removed, departed or taken out of the way. Therefore I know without a shadow of doubt that in verse 3a the one restraining has been removed, departed, or taken out of the way so that in 3b he is revealed.

 

Therefore SOMETHING in 3a must include teh idea of a departure by some OUTSIDE force: "taken out of the way."

 

³ Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

Nothing is departed or taken out of the way in the first phrase, "let no deceive you in any way."

Nothing is departed or taken out of the way in the second phrase, "For it will not be"

 

There is certainly something departed or taken out of the way in the 3rd phrase: "unless the departure come first.

 

Remember, Paul wrote, AND NOW you know. Why or how could a ready know WHO is restraining? Very simply became Paul TOLD us.

 

I believe then that it is the HOLY SPIRIT (HE) working through the church as the anointing on believers that is actually doing the restraining. When the rapture or departing comes, of course the very ones the Holy spirit is working through will no longer be on the planet, so the one restraining will be taken out of the way because those saints in whom He resides will be taken out of the way. Paul's argument then was actully not when the gathering would be (only that it must come first), but HOW to recognize the Day of the Lord by way of seeing the man of sin revealed. Also, when we see the "departure" as the gathering, we see that Paul was true to his theme.

 

When I read this passage this way, it is in 100% agreement with Paul's first letter, where the rapture is the trigger for the Day.

 

I like "the rapture coming" and "the white horse coming." Or it could be the Rev. 19 coming.

 

Another point: I don't see the idea of the rapture of the church in any of those Old Testament verses on the Day. They all seem terrible. However, since I do belive the day of the Lord covers the entire millennium, then certainly after the destruction of the world and the sinners in the world, THEN the Day will be a happy day!

 

LAMAD

 

 

Edited July 17, 2014 by iamlamad